Episode 18
Inside Amtrak: Growth, Modernization, and High-Speed Rail with CEO Stephen Gardner
In this episode of Transit Unplugged, host Paul Comfort interviews Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak, at their Washington, DC headquarters. They discuss Amtrak's record ridership of 32.8 million passengers in the past year, recent capital investments totaling $4.5 billion, and the introduction of new Acela trains. Gardner shares insights into Amtrak's strategy to double ridership by 2040, high-speed rail initiatives, and the unique structure of Amtrak as a federally-owned yet commercially-operated entity. Key projects such as the Frederick Douglass Tunnel in Baltimore and the upcoming Gulf Coast service are also highlighted, along with Amtrak's approach to modernizing and expanding its network. The episode concludes with a look into the future of rail travel and the importance of strategic partnerships.
00:00 Welcome to Transit Unplugged
00:05 Introduction to today's episode from host Paul Comfort
01:24 Interview with Stephen Gardner
01:34 Stephen Gardner's Background and Role at Amtrak
03:03 Understanding Amtrak's Unique Structure
07:42 Amtrak's Business Model and Operations
13:23 Challenges and Opportunities in Rail Expansion
23:02 High-Speed Rail and Future Projects
27:18 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Next week on Transit Unplugged, Paul chats with Mikel Oglesby, General Manager of SunTran, SunRail, and SunLink, in Tucson, AZ.
Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo https://www.modaxo.com
Host: Paul Comfort
Producer: Paul Comfort
Writer: Cyndi Raskin
Executive Producer: Julie Gates
Special thanks to:
Brand design: Tina Olagundoye
Social Media: Tatyana Mechkarova
Transit Unplugged Newsletter & Media Support: Cyndi Raskin
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Modaxo Inc., its affiliates or subsidiaries, or any entities they represent (“Modaxo”). This production belongs to Modaxo, and may contain information that may be subject to trademark, copyright, or other intellectual property rights and restrictions. This production provides general information, and should not be relied on as legal advice or opinion. Modaxo specifically disclaims all warranties, express or implied, and will not be liable for any losses, claims, or damages arising from the use of this presentation, from any material contained in it, or from any action or decision taken in response to it.
Transcript
Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Stephen Gardner is the CEO of
Speaker:Amtrak, America's National Railroad.
Speaker:I recently had the opportunity to go visit him in his offices in Washington, DC For
Speaker:today's podcast, I'm Paul Comfort and on Transit Unplugged we take you behind the
Speaker:scenes of transit agencies around the world and talk to their top executives.
Speaker:There's a lot to talk about during this visit with, uh, Stephen Gardner,
Speaker:where we met in this conference room.
Speaker:We talked about the record ridership last year of 32.8 million passengers.
Speaker:Uh, the new capital investments, $4.5 billion and what they're doing with
Speaker:all that money, how they're doing things differently, bringing on the
Speaker:new Ascela trains and how they plan to continue to grow their and double
Speaker:their ridership hopefully by 2040.
Speaker:We talk about the new services, the return of the Gulf Coast Service, high speed
Speaker:rail, uh, their interactions with state agencies and supporting their services.
Speaker:Also the Frederick Douglass Tunnel in Baltimore, where I
Speaker:used to serve as CEO of the MTA.
Speaker:I asked him about that.
Speaker:He has drawn on two decades of transportation policy, experience,
Speaker:and, um, he has taken Amtrak into kind of a new era of modernization,
Speaker:service expansion, and growth.
Speaker:Join us on today's episode of Transit Unplugged with my very special guest,
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak.
Speaker:Great to have Stephen Gardner with us today on the podcast.
Speaker:He is the CEO of Amtrak, America's National Railroad.
Speaker:We're at your headquarters.
Speaker:Thanks for inviting us in, man.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Paul, great to be here.
Speaker:Thanks so much.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Yeah, so tell us some about yourself.
Speaker:How long you've had this role and, and what's, and then we'll
Speaker:go into what's going on at Amtrak.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Okay, great.
Speaker:Yeah, so I am coming up just about here in a week.
Speaker:My third anniversary here as CEO, but I've been in the company since 2009.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Okay.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: And I actually started way, way back
Speaker:in 1993 as an intern, 92, 93 maybe.
Speaker:So, I have had a long history with the company, and, and with railroads,
Speaker:I, you know, I, I was a kid who loved anything big that moved, you know,
Speaker:and found my way into railroads, in high school as an interest, and, and
Speaker:transportation generally, and, then I've been working in both on the freight
Speaker:side, and in passenger, and in policy and regulation for my career, and
Speaker:I've been really lucky to be here at Amtrak during a pretty phenomenal time.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: That is great.
Speaker:Like, who's your boss?
Speaker:Who do you report to?
Speaker:How did you get the job?
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, so I work for our board of directors.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Our board is interesting.
Speaker:They're appointed by Presidents and confirmed by the Senate, so.
Speaker:Oh, is that great.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:And, and then there are two sort of statutory additions.
Speaker:The Secretary of Transportation is a board member and obviously doesn't need
Speaker:to be confirmed separately for that role.
Speaker:And then the President and CEO, historically now the CEO.
Speaker:is also a member, but I'm an ex officio member, so I don't vote, but
Speaker:I'm a party to all the proceedings.
Speaker:That's good, you should be.
Speaker:Yeah, and I get to, you know, spend a lot of time with my bosses there.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: That's great.
Speaker:So tell us about Amtrak.
Speaker:Explain to, you know, the listener in Saudi Arabia today, you know, because
Speaker:we're heard in a hundred countries.
Speaker:Tell us what Amtrak is and how you all function.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, it's a really interesting story,
Speaker:you know, and pretty unique, right?
Speaker:Because the thing that really separates the U. S. rail system today
Speaker:from everywhere else in the world.
Speaker:And I get this question all the time, like how come our system's different than,
Speaker:you know, in Asia or in Europe, right?
Speaker:Is the private ownership of our nation's railway infrastructure.
Speaker:We, Canada, Australia, are really the sort of big developed countries that
Speaker:have privately owned rail infrastructure.
Speaker:Really everywhere else, for the most part, the infrastructure,
Speaker:was, is owned by the public sector.
Speaker:A lot of it came out of the World Wars, frankly, when, when, when infrastructure
Speaker:was was going to destroyed and rebuilt and became under public ownership.
Speaker:But, so Amtrak is, is a unique entity.
Speaker:I like to describe it sometimes as kind of a platypus like, you know, where we are a
Speaker:creature of the Federal Government created by an Act of Congress, obviously, with the
Speaker:Executive Branches, support an approval.
Speaker:But we function and are C Corporation here in the District of Columbia.
Speaker:So we're structured like a normal private for profit corporation.
Speaker:And, we're chartered for a public mission, basically.
Speaker:the Government created a company that could act kind of like a commercial
Speaker:entity and do all the things that commercial entities do, but for the
Speaker:purpose of benefiting the, the public.
Speaker:And so we have a Board of Directors that reflects really that ownership of the
Speaker:Federal Government in the asset, because the government created the corporation,
Speaker:and then the Government actually owns us through preferred shares, which is
Speaker:people don't necessarily know that, you know, we do have shares and they're
Speaker:owned by the Secretary of Transportation, in essence, by the department.
Speaker:And so we're a, an asset of the Federal Government.
Speaker:We're not an agency.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And there are a lot of reasons for that.
Speaker:It's interesting to think about, the different ways that the
Speaker:Government can structure entities to accomplish public missions.
Speaker:You can think about kind of a, an interesting.
Speaker:alternative arrangement, which is sort of the FAA, which has a, a
Speaker:regulatory and policy arm, but then has a huge operating arm in the
Speaker:air traffic control system, right?
Speaker:Forty some thousand people are out there making stuff happen every day in, the
Speaker:case of sort of federal railroad policy.
Speaker:Congress created an entity, Amtrak, sort of outside of the government, but
Speaker:supported by the Government and owned by the Government and then has the
Speaker:Department of transportation through the Federal Rail Administration as regulator
Speaker:and policy and planning apparatus.
Speaker:So we're, we're kind of one half of the Federal, policy and, and program for,
Speaker:for, for interstate passenger rail.
Speaker:And we really created, actually at the really recommendation at the behest
Speaker:of the private railways at the time who were operating passenger trains
Speaker:and freight trains over their network.
Speaker:You know, there were 20 or so class one railroads, big railroads
Speaker:all over the U. S. at the time.
Speaker:a lot of, sort of very significant financial risk that was in bankruptcy,
Speaker:sort of either occurring or on the verge in the, in the industry at the
Speaker:time, and a desire, by the private railways to, in essence, consolidate
Speaker:the passenger operation and relationship into the Federal Government.
Speaker:And the exchange there was in essence, the Federal Government would
Speaker:become the agent for the private railways to deliver on their common
Speaker:carriage obligation for passengers.
Speaker:So historically the, the, the railways exist in part because they received,
Speaker:received charters from the public to be able to operate their service and
Speaker:get easements and condemn property, all that kind of stuff in exchange for,
Speaker:agreeing to carry both goods and people.
Speaker:And that all regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission, eventually leads to
Speaker:this point where the Federal Government picks up that responsibility in essence.
Speaker:And in exchange for doing that, got access to the nation's rail network.
Speaker:So that tracks, facilities, the people for a while in essence
Speaker:to deliver on that service.
Speaker:So it's a unique, it's a unique entity.
Speaker:We're a national railway, but quite different than the national railways
Speaker:of other national railways which own typically the infrastructure.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And, and have a big, long, you know, track record of, of development and assets.
Speaker:We're a very small sort of owner of the asset that we use, 21, 000
Speaker:route miles and across the 46 States that we serve, but we only own
Speaker:approximately a thousand of those.
Speaker:So, we're mostly a tenant on other people's railroads,
Speaker:essentially delivering kind of.
Speaker:The obligation of serving passengers on behalf of our government using
Speaker:those assets in partnership with them.
Speaker:And then we own a big piece of railroad here in the Northeast
Speaker:and a couple of pieces across the nation, some for historic reasons,
Speaker:some for strategic reasons.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Now, you, you operate some direct, a
Speaker:lot, most of it directly, but we were just saying before it turned on the,
Speaker:the mic, that when I was at MTA, you used to run, under a contract, the
Speaker:commuter train services, Maryland, into Union Station, and I think
Speaker:you operate the Penn Line, right?
Speaker:That's right, yeah.
Speaker:So, do you bid on that, and then?
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, it's a, it's a great point.
Speaker:I, I, I like to think about our business in sort of two, two big buckets.
Speaker:First one is that we, we sort of, we have our transportation
Speaker:business, our passenger business.
Speaker:That's kind of like an airline, you know?
Speaker:We, we have a retail business.
Speaker:We get out there, we have to market and advertise to customers.
Speaker:We have to create a pathway for them to purchase.
Speaker:We have to think about how we price and manage all that stuff.
Speaker:And, and then we have to deliver great customer experience on
Speaker:routes that make sense and that meet people's mobility needs.
Speaker:That's kind of the business that most people think about
Speaker:when they think about Amtrak.
Speaker:You know, kind of door to, you know, station to station, retail,
Speaker:transportation, operations.
Speaker:inter-city.
Speaker:inter-city.
Speaker:And that's a really important point, right, our basic purpose in life
Speaker:is to serve inter-city markets and interstate commerce, right?
Speaker:So we're serving, you know, every 20 miles or 30 miles or 50 miles, not every five.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And our routes tend to be longer than a hundred miles.
Speaker:A commuter is in that space of sort of sub hundred miles, making stops that are
Speaker:much shorter, and also really focused on sort of peak commute times, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:As opposed to us, a really different trip type for us.
Speaker:So We've got this kind of airline business a little bit, you know, obviously we
Speaker:like to think we offer a really different product than the airlines, but just in
Speaker:terms of the functions of what an airline does, we have to do that too, right?
Speaker:And then we also have something kind of like an airport business, which is that we
Speaker:have all this infrastructure, particularly on the Northeast, that we use.
Speaker:But fundamentally, we provide for a whole series of, of users.
Speaker:So on the Northeast Corridor, eight different commuter railways,
Speaker:four different freight railways.
Speaker:In Chicago, we have Metra.
Speaker:So, even though Amtrak has about 300 trains a day, And we, about, you
Speaker:know, 33 million passengers a year.
Speaker:If you actually look at all the different entities that rely on our assets and
Speaker:services, it's more like 300 million trips a year, not 33 million trips a year.
Speaker:And it's way, way, way more than 300 trains.
Speaker:Just on the Northeast Corridor, it's about 2, 200 trains a day.
Speaker:So we're a minority user of the assets we own, in the Northeast Corridor.
Speaker:And our job is to be sort of a steward there, like an airport, you know,
Speaker:you've got a, you've got a facility, it's got to work, you've got all
Speaker:these different carriers, they're trying to do their respective jobs.
Speaker:And, and so those are our kind of two big halves of the business to your point
Speaker:in that kind of, you know, passenger business, as opposed to sort of the
Speaker:infrastructure or terminal business, we both run our own trains, and then
Speaker:we also make ourselves available to run trains on behalf of other entities.
Speaker:Sometimes in partnership, like in Winter Park, we're providing the ski train up to,
Speaker:in Colorado from Denver, that's a sort of joint partnership between the resort and
Speaker:the city, or like Maryland MTA, who's been a fantastic, customer and partner for us
Speaker:for forever, really, on the Penn Line.
Speaker:And, you know, those those are opportunities for us where we, we think
Speaker:about where's the synergy, you know, where do we already have facilities
Speaker:and people and it makes sense for us to be able to add some components here.
Speaker:We, we tend to think about our business in that way and, and think about, you
Speaker:know, risk and reward and time and energy.
Speaker:You know, we can't do everything and we got to make sure our core
Speaker:business is working well, but then we try and augment and help where
Speaker:we can because we want rail to grow.
Speaker:We believe in rail.
Speaker:We believe deeply that there's a huge opportunity to expand.
Speaker:the use of our network, you know, we have the largest rail
Speaker:network on earth, any nation.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:By far.
Speaker:That's great.
Speaker:Yeah, it's a fact that, you know, folks don't really know about, right?
Speaker:It's, I think we're 60,000 more route miles than China, so
Speaker:it's this huge network we have.
Speaker:Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker:And there's so much, I think, latent capacity to move both passengers
Speaker:and people, and we're going to need it as we keep growing as a country.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:So, that's sort of in a nutshell.
Speaker:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker:Those are the big things we do.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: I love, It's the only way to go in my
Speaker:mind, like, for the Northeast Corridor.
Speaker:So I live on Eastern Shore, Maryland.
Speaker:I'll go to Wilmington, hop on the train, you know, pop up to New York
Speaker:on the Business Class and on the Acela, which doesn't stop as much.
Speaker:Boom.
Speaker:You can walk around.
Speaker:I hate airplanes now, how tight they are and how cramped in,
Speaker:and man, Amtrak does it right.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah.
Speaker:Well, look, I, I, I love to hear that first and foremost, and look, that's
Speaker:why we, we're really bullish about the business, because in the end,
Speaker:I travel all over the U.S., I don't ever meet anybody who says like, Oh,
Speaker:You know, trains, those are sort of old days, you know, relics, like who,
Speaker:who would ever want to ride a train?
Speaker:I hear exactly the opposite for exactly those reasons.
Speaker:We're sort of, I think of us as a more generous mode, you know, a mode where you
Speaker:have, it's a little more human, you know, you can get up, bigger windows, you can
Speaker:get up, you can walk around, you got a little more space, you can go grab a bite.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Yeah you got food on there!
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: You can see some friends and, and you get to
Speaker:engage with the landscape too, right?
Speaker:You get to, it's sort of not, airline, look, and, and, you know, for sure,
Speaker:we, we know that, the airline industry is essential and we know that there
Speaker:are real places that, you know, real trips that, that make sense by air, but
Speaker:it's a little bit like teleportation, you know, you like get in a box
Speaker:and you show up somewhere, right?
Speaker:In trains, you get to experience the communities, you get to connect.
Speaker:I mean, I think it's just a generous experience comparatively.
Speaker:So I, you know, I think we try to play that up.
Speaker:Obviously we got a lot of old assets we're trying to make better.
Speaker:At the same time, we're, we're trying to keep, as we make those assets new
Speaker:and modern and appeal to whole new generations, we're trying to keep the
Speaker:things that we think makes rail special and different and people really like it.
Speaker:I also have to say, Nobody seems to really enjoy driving these days, you
Speaker:know, so there's also a huge group of people who are looking for an alternative
Speaker:than sitting in traffic or the stress of driving and a whole new generation,
Speaker:frankly, who thinks driving is a, it's an imposition, it's kind of a waste of time,
Speaker:they want to be on their devices, they want to be doing other stuff, they don't
Speaker:want to be bothered with that, so, I mean, the good news is everywhere we look, we
Speaker:see people interested in the business.
Speaker:That doesn't mean rail makes sense everywhere, you know.
Speaker:Certain markets make more sense than others.
Speaker:And the economics of the business are, you know, are challenging.
Speaker:It's a lot of fixed cost, a lot of upfront cost to get a service going.
Speaker:But there's way more opportunity than we've been able to tap yet.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: You know, we do a TV show, Transit
Speaker:Unplugged TV, and I wanted to one time do a cross country.
Speaker:Ride on Amtrak and film it, man.
Speaker:You might even do a documentary on it.
Speaker:I mean, that'd be a phenomenal experience, interacting with everybody.
Speaker:It's awesome.
Speaker:I'm sure you've had plenty of people do it.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, and I do, so I'm, you know, I'm on my,
Speaker:I don't know, I've been on every route at least a couple times in my career.
Speaker:Oh, that's great, yeah.
Speaker:And we go out every as a quarter, our executive team goes out and
Speaker:we visit parts of the network.
Speaker:And then myself and our president, Roger, we, we do
Speaker:trips maybe three or four a year.
Speaker:We get out on the network, say hi to our customers, our employees, our facilities.
Speaker:And it's incredible what you see.
Speaker:I mean, these routes, whether it's our state supported network, which
Speaker:are those shorter distance corridors that we operate in partnership with
Speaker:our States and the States fund and are really sort of, they drive that network,
Speaker:or our long distance trains, you see really fascinating stories out there
Speaker:and and you see a lot of communities where we make a big difference.
Speaker:I was on the Texas Eagle last year.
Speaker:We showed up at Little Rock like 3 a. m., you know, it's, it's 3 a. m., Paul,
Speaker:like, you know, and I, and, and I always try and, you know, we, we, we shift
Speaker:sometimes of who does what, but we always try to make sure we sort of, as, as
Speaker:leaders, we're out there at those times so we can see customers, employees, and,
Speaker:and, and really see what's happening.
Speaker:And there were like 50 people waiting in line, you know, this is a train going to
Speaker:Texas from Little Rock in 3 a. m., right?
Speaker:And there's, and there's not one person or two people, but sort of 50 people
Speaker:getting ready to get on that train.
Speaker:And it just shows you how much, I think, more we could do in a city pair like that.
Speaker:You know, okay, Dallas to Little Rock.
Speaker:If there are 50 people willing to get up and take that train at 3 a. m., what would
Speaker:it be like if we could offer a train at 9 a. m. and at 3 p. m., you know, right?
Speaker:So I, I, and, and the good news is we're really seeing this.
Speaker:Proved out, in fact our ridership is new record in 24, we're back above COVID, and
Speaker:I think we're the only entity you're going to be talking to in this transit space,
Speaker:you know, that's really in that spot.
Speaker:I think buses come back in some places, you know, on hire, but
Speaker:in terms of rail, we, we really, we've got tons of demand and,
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Record ridership, 32.
Speaker:8 million.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: That's right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Boom.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And we're going to be better than that already.
Speaker:We're, we're, our first quarter was better than planned for 25.
Speaker:So we're doing well.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: So, and record capital
Speaker:investment talk about that.
Speaker:You've had a lot of money coming in the last few years.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, we do.
Speaker:We have.
Speaker:So, you know, It is exciting.
Speaker:It's incredibly exciting.
Speaker:And I think all of us in the company feel like we're, you know, we sort of
Speaker:If we won the lottery, like we're here at the time, we're here at the right
Speaker:time when we get to make investments.
Speaker:But on the other hand, the reason there is so much money coming is because
Speaker:for so long the company was starved.
Speaker:So we inherited assets back in 1976, which is when we took
Speaker:over the Northeast Corridor.
Speaker:For instance, they were ready to be retired like 10 years prior or
Speaker:20 years prior, and now we're 50 years later and we're still like
Speaker:keeping those things together, right?
Speaker:So, it's, it's, it's a huge amount of investment happening in part
Speaker:because, it's urgent that we start to recapitalize some of these old assets,
Speaker:you know, equipment that's 50 years old.
Speaker:Yeah, you know, I mean if I showed up to your house with,
Speaker:you know, A 28 Studebaker?
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Like, how would you feel, right?
Speaker:I mean, you might think that was cool for a second, and then you'd
Speaker:have to think, like, I'm gonna drive in that thing for a hundred miles?
Speaker:I don't know, right?
Speaker:So, we just We have all this old equipment.
Speaker:We have these huge bridges and tunnels on the Northeast Corridor, as you know.
Speaker:Oh, yeah.
Speaker:You're fixing the one in Baltimore, the Frederick Douglass one.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Frederick Douglass.
Speaker:You know, there's a tunnel in 1871.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Lincoln era, baby.
Speaker:Almost.
Speaker:Yeah, Ulysses S. Grant, right?
Speaker:It's obviously time to replace an asset like that, that was designed
Speaker:with a completely different concept, doesn't meet today's standards.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It isn't.
Speaker:All of those things fit for purpose in terms of capacity or trip time
Speaker:or safety or any of those things.
Speaker:And it's not going to last forever, you know?
Speaker:I remember I sat in the front of one of your trains with the full glass.
Speaker:Yeah, I remember that trip.
Speaker:Yeah, and we went on, were you on that one?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, that was cool, man.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, you really see up close and personal and you, and it, and it,
Speaker:I think it speaks to you, right?
Speaker:You sort of see like, okay, I get it.
Speaker:I get that this is something that we, and so some of those big assets,
Speaker:it's like, it's a binary choice.
Speaker:You either, either replace the thing or you don't run the railroad, you know?
Speaker:Like, right?
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: So what are you going to do there?
Speaker:Like, tell us about that because a lot of people around here want to know.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah.
Speaker:So we have, that's a, you know, this case where actually have three separate
Speaker:tunnels that were built in the 1870s, as I said, and then make a big curve
Speaker:when you're coming into Baltimore.
Speaker:You, you, you.
Speaker:You're heading kind of northeast and then you make a sharp right hand and you
Speaker:basically go sort of due east across to the station and then you make another
Speaker:turn and you end up heading north again.
Speaker:And those tunnels are where that curve is and we end up
Speaker:having to go 30 miles an hour.
Speaker:And we have two trains in a single tunnel, which is not the right design.
Speaker:It's not a modern design.
Speaker:Nobody in the 20th century would do that, you know, let alone 21st.
Speaker:Because if you have a problem with one of the trains, now you've impacted the
Speaker:whole tunnel and you can potentially other trains in there, right?
Speaker:And so, and then there's, there's water problems.
Speaker:There's a whole, I'll spare you the details, but there's a ton of ground
Speaker:water and water from the municipal water system that gets in there and is
Speaker:sort of working negatively against the structure, which is all brick lined.
Speaker:And I mean, it's a, again, an incredible, you know, my, my I raised my glass
Speaker:to the folks who built it, you know, right, the Pennsylvania Railroad
Speaker:predecessors that built it in the first place because it's still there,
Speaker:but it's way time for retirement.
Speaker:So we're going to build a new tunnel.
Speaker:It's two separate bores that will go in a wider arc around kind of
Speaker:the current tunnel and show up in at Penn Station, Baltimore.
Speaker:And that alignment is going to allow us to go a lot faster.
Speaker:So a hundred miles an hour instead of 30, and it's going to
Speaker:meet all the proper standards.
Speaker:It's built so that eventually you could even add more tubes if you needed.
Speaker:So that in 2070 or whatever, when we need to grow again, there's a capability.
Speaker:I think it's really important.
Speaker:For me, as you know, someone who was a planner here at Amtrak and that,
Speaker:that, you know, our successors 40 years from now, I don't look back and go
Speaker:like, oh, those guys, you know, right.
Speaker:So we tried to build everything thinking about future needs, right.
Speaker:and, and we were cognizant we're building assets that could last 200 years.
Speaker:So, you know, how do we anticipate the needs and modularity, so to speak?
Speaker:So anyway, this new tunnel is going to really give us great,
Speaker:great new approach into Baltimore.
Speaker:It'll allow future, growth in the long term and it gives us the proper fire life
Speaker:safety, evacuation, you know, ventilation needs to have a safe operation, which is
Speaker:what what we owe it at our first duty.
Speaker:Our first duty is always to operate a safe system, and that's essential.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Yeah, I used to close
Speaker:every meeting at the MTA.
Speaker:Now we said what we're gonna do today.
Speaker:What's the one thing we're not gonna do?
Speaker:We're not gonna have a derailment.
Speaker:How long before you think this thing is like It takes a while.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, it takes a while.
Speaker:It's in the 2030s, and early 2030s, we're working on, you know, opportunities
Speaker:everywhere we can to sort of pull those in, but it takes a couple of years to
Speaker:order the big tunnel boring machines.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And then they got to go in there and they got to dig their holes.
Speaker:so, but we're looking everywhere we can to try and shave time and, you
Speaker:know, of course, make sure we've got a safe asset, but, but we, we,
Speaker:we, we're as impatient as we can.
Speaker:As anybody.
Speaker:Yeah, of course.
Speaker:To get the old thing replaced and get a new, as a, and then speaking
Speaker:of Mark and your alma mater, I mean, the MTA gets huge benefits because
Speaker:they're our partner in this program.
Speaker:It's a partnership between Amtrak and Maryland.
Speaker:Holly's doing a great job.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:And together we're making investments here to match the federal investments,
Speaker:but Mark's going to be able to offer, you know, almost basically 30 minute,
Speaker:express service, sort of downtown Baltimore to Washington, which,
Speaker:which negates the need for the huge, which is a huge, yeah, huge asset.
Speaker:Big time, big time.
Speaker:And I think it really changes sort of Baltimore's If you could go
Speaker:from Baltimore to Washington in 30 minutes, that's going to be loaded.
Speaker:Right around, I think 30, right?
Speaker:So, so that's, that's great.
Speaker:And, and it means that, you know, you're just, you're basically, And I think
Speaker:that's what rail can do, and intercity rail in particular, you know, you can
Speaker:bring regions and cities closer together and create larger labor pools, larger
Speaker:economic opportunities, you know, because people can live and, and work in them.
Speaker:So, you know, you can reasonably live and work across a larger physical
Speaker:distance because rail can shrink time.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: That's right.
Speaker:And, I love that.
Speaker:That should be your new logo or motto, Rail Can Shrink Time.
Speaker:That's beautiful, man.
Speaker:all right.
Speaker:So, you talked about that.
Speaker:That's a good segue to the, you know, I can't let you leave without
Speaker:a question on high speed rail.
Speaker:So, you got Brightline, you know, Orlando to Miami.
Speaker:I've covered them a lot.
Speaker:They're trying to do one out West.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and you guys got Andy Byford here.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Let's see, when I was at Baltimore, he was in Toronto, then New York,
Speaker:then London, then back here.
Speaker:Where are we at on high speed rail for Amtrak?
Speaker:You guys are rolling on this, right?
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, so, I mean, first off, you know, we, we
Speaker:support, as I said, we believe in rail and we believe that rail can and should
Speaker:do more as part of mobility in the U. S. So we support all the different folks who
Speaker:are out there trying to make stuff happen.
Speaker:So we support Brightline and we support the work they're doing there
Speaker:at Cascadia and the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker:You know, this is all from our perspective.
Speaker:I mean, I think there's opportunity to Try and get as much collective value
Speaker:by making sure a network works in the end so that people can use all these
Speaker:different systems and services together.
Speaker:I think that's really important and it's something you see all over the world.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Right, like you're not gonna build
Speaker:one right next to the BrightLine.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, right, exactly.
Speaker:Right, so the question is how do we, I mean, I think Amtrak's question
Speaker:is always, well, how do we create value for the American people, right?
Speaker:We're not here to make a dividend for the Treasury.
Speaker:We're here to create value.
Speaker:You're not the sovereign wealth fund?
Speaker:We'll get into that.
Speaker:And obviously we want to do that with as little Federal support as we can.
Speaker:We want to be able to earn as much as we can, and invest, you know, create as much
Speaker:independent financial capacity through our partners and through our own activities.
Speaker:But, you know, I think our, our responsibility is okay, you know,
Speaker:for, you know, all those taxpayers out there, how are we creating some value?
Speaker:And so, you know, we see all these different projects, and we say,
Speaker:okay, you know, how can we support?
Speaker:How can we, is there ways for us to plug in to help?
Speaker:I mean, we're open to all that.
Speaker:And so we're excited by that.
Speaker:Andy is in, is responsible really for our strategy about those opportunities.
Speaker:And he's leading our work in Texas where we're looking at a specific project there.
Speaker:You know, there's this long term project that had been developed by Texas Central.
Speaker:And, you know, we're just, Houston to Dallas.
Speaker:Houston to Dallas.
Speaker:Yeah an incredible, you know, two incredible markets.
Speaker:Yeah, man.
Speaker:13 million people between the two.
Speaker:And you look at Texas.
Speaker:It's perfect.
Speaker:It's like 10, almost 10 percent of the U.S. population.
Speaker:It's growing, you know, hand over fist.
Speaker:I mean, it's really a huge success story.
Speaker:And we think rail makes so much sense.
Speaker:You're just going to run out of, you know, I mean, the costs of, of
Speaker:highway construction there is enormous.
Speaker:Every lane you add is just already filled by the time it's built.
Speaker:You know the story, right?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:So, and, and there's so much growth and so much opportunity.
Speaker:How do you efficiently support it.
Speaker:So we think that there's a really, really interesting case.
Speaker:There's been a lot of work done.
Speaker:What we're doing now is looking at all that work done in the past, trying
Speaker:to evaluate, you know, what's the possibility of advancing that program.
Speaker:there are a lot of partners who have been involved and we're, you know, in
Speaker:conversations with all those, but the idea is that, Hey, you know, high speed
Speaker:is not, it's not some newfangled thing, you know, it's 50 years old in Japan, it's
Speaker:all over the world, you know, China has an incredible, massive network, obviously
Speaker:people are familiar in Europe, and we can do it here, the question is, you know,
Speaker:in what markets and with what model, it's going to take some kind of partnerships.
Speaker:Maglev versus regular rail, those kind of things.
Speaker:You know, those are, those are, you know, interesting conversations, I think
Speaker:the thing that we believe is that high speed should be part of the our, our
Speaker:mobility system that it fits in with the conventional network everywhere in
Speaker:the world there's high speed there's a conventional network and there's a
Speaker:transit network that support it, right?
Speaker:You've got to get to the station and to go fast.
Speaker:You can't stop everywhere.
Speaker:That's the whole thing, right?
Speaker:You cannot stop everywhere.
Speaker:So you need a way to It's a collector system, you know, a feeder system that
Speaker:gets people to those key high speed nodes.
Speaker:And this is how things work together and how you really create options for people.
Speaker:And so we, we have that broad vision we think high speed
Speaker:should be part of the equation.
Speaker:We're really lucky to have somebody like Andy with his incredible track record and
Speaker:skill to be leading that front for us.
Speaker:And you know, we're going to be working with obviously the new Administration
Speaker:and Congress to see, you know, what, what, what appetite there is and what
Speaker:opportunities and, and then also with the private sector and with our States and
Speaker:localities, you know, about what everyone wants to do here, but we think it's worth
Speaker:really understanding the opportunity and being able to give our own assessment
Speaker:about what we think is possible and and then we'll we'll see where that leads us.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: All right, so we're almost at time.
Speaker:I've talked to you for like two hours, I think, but we don't have that much
Speaker:time, so what else you want to wrap us up with and, you know, any other big
Speaker:projects you want to tell us about?
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah, well, so really if you think about,
Speaker:all the big projects, they kind of go into two, two big categories.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:One is replacing all our old stuff, right?
Speaker:As I said, we inherited all this stuff, sort of, from the older days
Speaker:before Amtrak was in existence, and then our first decade or two
Speaker:we bought a bunch of new stuff.
Speaker:We're now kind of at the end of the useful life of all of those things
Speaker:or things that need a lot of work.
Speaker:So there's a huge fleet program.
Speaker:We have our new Acela coming soon.
Speaker:We have our new Aerotrans coming to replace our regional sets.
Speaker:Those will be, be, the first you'll see those are out in the Cascades in the
Speaker:Pacific Northwest in 2026 and then showing up on the Northeast corridor and our, some
Speaker:of our state supported routes in 2027.
Speaker:That's huge.
Speaker:I mean, that's.
Speaker:really a, a, a, a generational upgrade in new equipment.
Speaker:These are all digital assets, replacing analog assets, so they're,
Speaker:you know, much more sophisticated.
Speaker:I think they're going to be great.
Speaker:and then we've got new diesel locomotives already underway, and we are in the
Speaker:process of our solicitation to begin the long distance train refleet.
Speaker:So over the next 10 years, you know, we will basically.
Speaker:retire the old fleet and come up with a whole new fleet.
Speaker:It's like a new generation, a new 21st century generation of these assets.
Speaker:So that's really exciting.
Speaker:We're also focused on how we get some more capacity into that mix
Speaker:because the Federal Government has basically funded us to replace what
Speaker:we have, but not necessarily grow.
Speaker:And as I said, you know, we're already ahead of where we
Speaker:were planning for this year.
Speaker:Last year we set a record.
Speaker:This year, after the first quarter, I mean, our Northeast Corridor was,
Speaker:in December, was 20 percent above the prior December in terms of ridership,
Speaker:you know, and we created a lot more capacity by running our assets harder.
Speaker:Now, that's tough because our assets are old, as I mentioned, so we're like putting
Speaker:them under a lot of strain and they're, you know, they're, they're showing their
Speaker:age, you know, so there's a little bit of reliability issues that come with
Speaker:that, but there are so many people want to take the train we're just trying to
Speaker:get every seat we can out in the market.
Speaker:Meanwhile, get this new equipment in.
Speaker:And we've got a whole suite of work on stations trying to update, particularly
Speaker:our big stations, which had a lot of deferred work, doing that in partnership
Speaker:with developers and private parties to get great facilities in these communities.
Speaker:Also making accessible all over the network our facilities so that
Speaker:folks can have access to the train.
Speaker:So important.
Speaker:And then we're looking at some of our big key facilities like Chicago,
Speaker:where we have a ton of work at the station there and also our maintenance
Speaker:facilities, Seattle, New Orleans.
Speaker:Places we're building new capacity.
Speaker:to handle the new fleet.
Speaker:Because it's one thing to buy new trains, but these new trains are
Speaker:digital, they're train sets, they need now upgraded facilities to
Speaker:be able to maintain them reliably.
Speaker:So, it's kind of, in every direction, we are really redesigning and reinventing the
Speaker:network and we're doing it all at once not easy to try and manage all that There's
Speaker:a movie doing everything all at once or something like yeah So we're trying to do
Speaker:it all at once I mean that gives us a lot of opportunities for synergy, but it also
Speaker:has a lot of complexity and then so, so, so replacing all the old stuff is kind of
Speaker:category one for, for a new generation.
Speaker:And then category two is let's expand the network.
Speaker:Let's grow into those places where, you know, we barely serve, but we
Speaker:should, you know, I think always, I always, my heart goes out to places
Speaker:like Salt Lake City or Cleveland where, you know, we have trains, but they
Speaker:come in the middle of the night or, or Little Rock, like I mentioned, right?
Speaker:Like we just, these are places that deserve good.
Speaker:You know, high quality, regular service, if they had it, I think you'd see real
Speaker:response, but we haven't been able to do that yet, and so we're partnering
Speaker:with States, States and communities are taking the lead through an FRA
Speaker:program called the Corridor Development Program, Corridor Identification
Speaker:Development, where sort of adding new opportunities on the map and starting the
Speaker:planning process to make those happen.
Speaker:and, and we think that's, you know, we think we need to extend the network.
Speaker:The network needs to grow to follow the population.
Speaker:We've added 120, 130 million people since Amtrak was formed.
Speaker:And yet our network is still basically the same.
Speaker:So that means we've essentially been shrinking, you know, as
Speaker:populations been growing and we haven't grown at the same rate, right?
Speaker:So I, I, I really think there's a lot more to do.
Speaker:our State partners are the leaders here with, with FRA and sort of defining the
Speaker:opportunities and then we're helping people kind of focus in on what's possible
Speaker:and the technical work to get there.
Speaker:But I think it's, really exciting.
Speaker:Our, our, a great example of this is our Borealis Service.
Speaker:This is the new train that runs from Chicago to Milwaukee up to St. Paul.
Speaker:And it was an extension of a train that just went to Milwaukee and then,
Speaker:Minnesota joined in and, and we were able to extend this train to St. Paul.
Speaker:And, it's on the same route as the Empire Builder and what it's done, it always,
Speaker:Chicago St. Paul was a very popular portion of the, the Empire Builder.
Speaker:People don't realize those long distance trains, very few people, you know, 10
Speaker:percent or so actually ride end to end.
Speaker:The vast majority of the riders are on segments between.
Speaker:And this is one of those really dominant segments on the Empire Builder.
Speaker:But because there's only one train a day, you know, it wasn't so useful
Speaker:because you wanted to go but you couldn't come back or, or the train
Speaker:heading east was delayed because it was 2,000 miles before it got to St. Paul.
Speaker:So we added this train on top, so different time of day, but.
Speaker:On that same route, it's been gangbusters, you know, great results.
Speaker:Far, far exceeding our own kind of analysis of what the demand would be.
Speaker:And I think it just goes to show when you create some utility with what
Speaker:in the airlines they call schedule utility, but just generally when you
Speaker:create enough options that people feel like they have choices and they get
Speaker:to, you know, pick train A or train B, depending on what they want to do that
Speaker:day, you really get a lot of response.
Speaker:So it's a proof point that when we, when we build it in the right market, with the
Speaker:right service pattern, we can see growth.
Speaker:The next thing coming up is our Gulf Coast service, this is Mobile to New Orleans,
Speaker:we've been working on that forever.
Speaker:We're finally, you know, near the finish line sometime in 2025 and, and that's a
Speaker:whole new market for us since we, since, you know, we stopped serving it way back
Speaker:in the hurricane, you know, Katrina.
Speaker:So, it's, A a a really important test for sort of a new market Yeah.
Speaker:And a new service.
Speaker:And I, I'm, I'm hopeful it's gonna be gangbusters with, with our new sup,
Speaker:new support, you know, partners, in Mobile and in Mississippi and Louisiana.
Speaker:So that's gonna be really exciting and we'll see how it goes this summer.
Speaker:But I think hopefully it's a prelude of, of more to come.
Speaker:serve more of America, you know, get to Phoenix, get to Nashville, get
Speaker:more than one train a day in Atlanta.
Speaker:You look at these places and you say, well, of course, there's got
Speaker:to be a bunch of trains here, right?
Speaker:And you say, oh my God, how can there only be one?
Speaker:It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: Yeah.
Speaker:So I'm very excited about what's your, your plans and what's happening.
Speaker:And I, certainly hope that Congress sees the value of that and gives
Speaker:you the investment that they've been giving you over the last few years.
Speaker:And we continue that.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We'll obviously be working hard.
Speaker:It's, you know, it's our responsibility to explain the value and what
Speaker:we're doing with the dollars.
Speaker:I feel good about what we've accomplished, but a lot more to do.
Speaker:And, you know, that's what, that's our, our, our, and our, all our partners,
Speaker:you know, we're not a unitary actor.
Speaker:We do this in partnership with the various host railroads and our suppliers and our
Speaker:state partners and our commuter partners.
Speaker:So we all have to kind of talk about, Hey, this, this industry is creating incredible
Speaker:American jobs, you know, it really is.
Speaker:Our growth of employment, all the manufacturers who are out
Speaker:there building stuff, and the demand for concrete and steel and
Speaker:copper, I mean, just huge growth.
Speaker:opportunities and so that's creating real value and then, you know,
Speaker:the end result creates value.
Speaker:We're creating mobility and economic opportunity and so
Speaker:we think we got a great story.
Speaker:Paul Comfort, Host of Transit Unplugged: You do.
Speaker:Thanks for telling me here today.
Speaker:Stephen Gardner, CEO of Amtrak: It's my pleasure.
Speaker:Appreciate it really.
