Will Low Emission Zones Discourage Driving in the UK with Adam Hill

Paul Comfort: 00:00:04

Welcome to Transit Unplugged, now in our seventh season.

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I'm your host and producer, Paul Comfort.

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Today I'm talking with Adam Hill, editor in chief of London

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based ITS International Magazine.

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Adam and I discuss how great high speed rail is, and we compare notes on

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why it's so difficult to build, both there in England and here in the U.

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S.

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A big challenge in public transit worldwide is getting people out of their

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personal cars and onto trains and buses.

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Adam and I talk about that and how tools like congestion charging and low

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emission zones can help or hinder that.

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Adam talks about how London's new Ultra Low Emission Zone, or ULEZ, It's

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supposed to encourage taking transit, but there are a myriad of challenges to

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implementing it, including some political.

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It's a great lesson for us here in America and beyond in encouraging

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people to change their commuting habits.

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Join us for this fascinating discussion with one of the world's leading

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transportation experts, Adam Hill.

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And make sure you stay tuned for Mike's Minute after my interview with Adam.

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Yeah.

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Very good.

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You're at your nation's capital and I'm near ours near here in Washington, D.

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C.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:13

Adam, great to, uh, great to have you on the podcast, my friend.

Adam Hill: 00:01:16

Thank you, Paul.

Adam Hill: 00:01:17

Thank you very much for inviting me.

Adam Hill: 00:01:18

It's a great honor.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:19

Well, uh, you're welcome.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:21

You are, uh, a self described transit nerd and of course, editor

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of ITS International Magazine.

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tell me about a little bit about your organization and yourself.

Adam Hill: 00:01:31

Sure, well, ITS International is the leading platform

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for advanced technology for traffic management and urban mobility.

Adam Hill: 00:01:40

We have print and digital products, so the print magazine comes out six times a year.

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We have digital platforms, social media and so on.

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Something like 20, 000 readers and we have a fortnightly e newsletter which goes

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to 38, 000 transport, uh, professionals.

Adam Hill: 00:01:59

And around half our, we're based in the UK, but half our, uh,

Adam Hill: 00:02:03

readership is in, uh, North America.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:06

And for those of us in North America, what's a fortnight?

Adam Hill: 00:02:11

I'm so sorry it's every two weeks.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:14

I think a lot of people know that but it's actually not very common.

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I've actually been interacting quite a bit with some Brits lately.

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Um, my new book, uh, The Future of Public Transportation, or The New

Paul Comfort: 00:02:24

Future of Public Transportation, will be coming out in 2024, published by

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SAE, Society of Automotive Engineers, and just last week I was in Austin,

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Texas, and guess who I ran into?

Paul Comfort: 00:02:35

Tell me.

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Andy Byford.

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Fantastic.

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Commissioner of transportation.

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He was there.

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At a conference I was speaking at, he and I were both speaking, and we got

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together afterward for drinks and, uh, I'm very excited about the work he's

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doing, and a topic that you and I are going to talk about, which is bringing

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high speed rail to the United States.

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It seems like Europe and Asia have figured it out, but we're still,

Paul Comfort: 00:02:57

you know, Uh, trying to get there.

Adam Hill: 00:03:00

Well, it's kind of you to say that Europe's figuring it

Adam Hill: 00:03:02

out, because, um, in the UK at the moment, we are struggling a

Adam Hill: 00:03:05

little with, uh, high speed rail.

Adam Hill: 00:03:07

there's a major project, HS2, which has hit the buffers, is

Adam Hill: 00:03:12

that, is that perhaps fair to say?

Adam Hill: 00:03:14

Um...

Adam Hill: 00:03:14

It was originally designed to run from London to Birmingham, which is about

Adam Hill: 00:03:19

120 miles north, something like that, then to run on to two other great

Adam Hill: 00:03:23

northern cities, Manchester and Leeds.

Adam Hill: 00:03:26

Well, the northern bit, the bit after Birmingham, has really run into

Adam Hill: 00:03:31

difficulty, and in fact the Prime Minister this afternoon, is in Manchester UK,

Paul Comfort: 00:03:36

With Mayor Andy?

Adam Hill: 00:03:38

Yes, with Mayor Andy, and he's talking about whether he won't be

Adam Hill: 00:03:43

drawn on whether or not the high speed 2 line will eventually go to Manchester.

Adam Hill: 00:03:49

And I guess if you're actually in Manchester, you probably don't want

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to give any bad news to people there.

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today, but we'll see.

Adam Hill: 00:03:57

Um, yeah, I just

Paul Comfort: 00:03:58

read that.

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That's very interesting.

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It's billions of dollars they've already spent on it, uh, and getting it planned.

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Is that right in engineering?

Adam Hill: 00:04:06

That's absolutely right.

Adam Hill: 00:04:07

And I mean, it's an extraordinary infrastructure project.

Adam Hill: 00:04:10

I mean, it's very ambitious, but I think, um, there's quite a lot of consensus here

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that it would have made more sense to have started the work in the north of England,

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where connectivity between cities and towns is perhaps not as good as it is,

Adam Hill: 00:04:23

uh, Within the southeast of England and around London, which is very well served,

Adam Hill: 00:04:29

and the London to Birmingham route, for example, that's very quick already.

Adam Hill: 00:04:32

That's, that's, that's a very, very convenient line.

Adam Hill: 00:04:35

So the idea of making that quicker didn't necessarily make that much sense.

Adam Hill: 00:04:39

But Northern Connectivity does make sense in England, and yet that is the bit

Adam Hill: 00:04:44

that has been gradually sacrificed, cut back bit by bit over the last few years.

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and there may be further cuts to it as well.

Adam Hill: 00:04:52

Not only that Paul, the, uh, the line when it does come to London at the moment is

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not going to go to the centre of London.

Adam Hill: 00:05:00

It's going to go to a place called Old Oak Common, which

Adam Hill: 00:05:02

is on the outskirts of London.

Adam Hill: 00:05:04

I've lived in London 30 years I've never heard of, Old Oak Common,

Adam Hill: 00:05:08

neither has anyone else I've talked to.

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And it's just, you do wonder sometimes these, uh, great high-speed

Adam Hill: 00:05:15

rail, rail is a fantastic means of creating connectivity, economic

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growth, et cetera, et cetera.

Adam Hill: 00:05:22

We all get that, but you do have to get it right.

Adam Hill: 00:05:24

And I think what's happening with HS two at the moment in the uk,

Adam Hill: 00:05:28

well in England, I should say.

Adam Hill: 00:05:29

Yeah.

Adam Hill: 00:05:29

Rather than the uk.

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Shows that these big ticket, multi billion dollar, uh, projects, they

Adam Hill: 00:05:36

are hard, really hard to get right, although I have to say, I think we're

Adam Hill: 00:05:40

making a spectacular meal of it.

Adam Hill: 00:05:42

There's difficult and then there's really difficult.

Adam Hill: 00:05:44

So, it's, but yeah, um, you're absolutely right.

Adam Hill: 00:05:47

I'm fascinated by the idea of high speed, speed rail in the US as well.

Adam Hill: 00:05:51

Um, 20 odd years ago, I took a train from, um, LA to San Francisco,

Adam Hill: 00:05:58

although of course I didn't take a train from LA to San Francisco because

Adam Hill: 00:06:01

it doesn't go to San Francisco.

Adam Hill: 00:06:03

Um, I, you may be able to help me with where it stops, but it stops

Adam Hill: 00:06:07

near San Francisco, then I had to get someone to pick me up and get a ride.

Adam Hill: 00:06:10

You know...

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America just seems to me to be absolutely crying out for high speed rail.

Adam Hill: 00:06:15

It would be the most fantastic innovation and, um, great that

Adam Hill: 00:06:18

you've got the Transit Daddy there to sort of, that's right, help you

Paul Comfort: 00:06:22

out.

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Train Daddy's here.

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We, um, it's funny, the story you told about that, uh, project in England reminds

Paul Comfort: 00:06:29

me of what's happening here in the US.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:31

You're probably aware, but Uh, the effort that is furthest along is the

Paul Comfort: 00:06:35

California High Speed Rail Project.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:38

Yeah, so in California, like you said, in England, it's very interesting.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:42

Another long term high speed rail project that has been whittled back

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little by little so that it's kind of going what critics would say are

Paul Comfort: 00:06:50

from, you know, somewhere no one really wants to go to or come from.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:54

To the same on the other end.

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I mean, there are cities, there are people there, but they're not

Paul Comfort: 00:06:57

like LA, San Francisco, big places like that, big trip generators.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:01

Unlike what's happening in Florida here, where a private company is moving

Paul Comfort: 00:07:04

ahead, and it's not high speed in a traditional sense, it's not over 200

Paul Comfort: 00:07:08

miles per hour, but it's higher speed.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:11

Uh, and this is a company called Brightline Trains, uh, and they have,

Paul Comfort: 00:07:14

uh, had a train going from Miami to West Palm Beach, and they just recently opened

Paul Comfort: 00:07:19

up a station in Orlando at the airport.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:22

Great location, uh, so that you can connect between the two, and it's

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this intercity transportation, Adam, that is where you've got distances

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that are too short to really fly.

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But too long to drive, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:07:35

Sure.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:37

So anyway, very interesting.

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And now they're trying to start one, uh, between LA and Las Vegas,

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which would be a great, uh, trip generator because a lot of people go

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that way and they have to fly now.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:48

It's too far.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:49

It's, you know, it's just over, I think I did it a few years ago.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:51

I think it's like three and a half, four hours if you're

Paul Comfort: 00:07:54

going very fast, which I was.

Adam Hill: 00:07:58

But it's so interesting because I was in Detroit just a few

Adam Hill: 00:08:02

years ago, and when the, that beautiful, um, mainline station, uh, there, was

Adam Hill: 00:08:08

still a little bit in rack and ruin, and now having seen the pictures, it's

Adam Hill: 00:08:11

just, it's stunning, the redevelopment that's gone on, uh, around that area, but

Adam Hill: 00:08:15

again, just, you, I was walking around just thinking, I can't believe that

Adam Hill: 00:08:20

this extraordinary sort of cathedral to public transport, as was, is no longer

Adam Hill: 00:08:27

useful, and so I get, you know, I Things change, but some things do stay the same.

Adam Hill: 00:08:32

And rail links are such a fantastic, well, A, it's a fantastic way to travel.

Adam Hill: 00:08:37

It really is just one of the great ways to get around.

Adam Hill: 00:08:39

Um, but B, it's efficient.

Adam Hill: 00:08:42

It's, it can be cost effective.

Adam Hill: 00:08:44

It can be, uh, time effective.

Adam Hill: 00:08:47

And I just wonder why there isn't maybe the passion, um, where that's gone.

Adam Hill: 00:08:52

And again, I understand the, you know, the development of the automobile and the

Adam Hill: 00:08:56

development of relatively cheap flights.

Adam Hill: 00:08:58

Can it come back?

Adam Hill: 00:08:59

You know the market backwards, Paul.

Adam Hill: 00:09:01

Will we get to a point where high speed rail in the U.

Adam Hill: 00:09:04

S.

Adam Hill: 00:09:05

And that is passionately championed by policymakers, etc.

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So it's the, you know, a lot of it's political, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:09:12

Because the politicians are the ones that appropriate the funds.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:16

And when you have a pendulum in politics in America, where we go from Republican

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to Democrat, parties back and forth, there's sometimes less enthusiasm, or

Paul Comfort: 00:09:25

depending on where it's at, there's less enthusiasm sometimes and it stalls.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:29

But also...

Paul Comfort: 00:09:30

You know, that's not the only issue, Adam, uh, when I was CEO of the MTA

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in Baltimore, when I got there in 2015, there was a study underway.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:40

To look at high speed rail between Washington, D.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:43

C.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:43

and Baltimore, and they said, we can get this down to a 15 minute trip, which

Paul Comfort: 00:09:47

is very exciting for people, because a lot of people make that trip every day.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:51

Tens of thousands of people that drive their cars, and it takes an hour

Paul Comfort: 00:09:55

to two hours, depending on traffic.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:57

If you could get that down to 15 minutes, you'd have...

Paul Comfort: 00:10:00

a built in ridership.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:01

So they were studying when I got there.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:03

We got, I think a 20 some million dollar grant from the federal government.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:06

We were looking at Japanese maglev technology, our governor and my

Paul Comfort: 00:10:10

boss, the secretary of transportation actually went to Japan to take a

Paul Comfort: 00:10:14

look at it up close and personal.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:15

And they came back very enthused about it.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:17

So we're in the end of 2023.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:19

Now guess what's happening with it.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:21

They're still studying it.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:22

So, so, uh, you know, I know there's a lot of things that have to be

Paul Comfort: 00:10:26

looked at, but gee whiz, you know, can't we do this a little faster?

Adam Hill: 00:10:30

You see, I don't know whether it's a cry, because it just,

Adam Hill: 00:10:33

it seems, um, it is extraordinary.

Adam Hill: 00:10:36

I mean, we, we've had some success recently in, um, the southeast of

Adam Hill: 00:10:41

England with a thing called, it was called Crossrail, it's been

Adam Hill: 00:10:44

reborn as the Elizabeth Line.

Adam Hill: 00:10:46

Oh yeah,

Paul Comfort: 00:10:47

I love that.

Adam Hill: 00:10:48

I know you've been on it.

Adam Hill: 00:10:49

I know a lot of people have done some great travelogues and so on from there.

Adam Hill: 00:10:55

And it's the most fantastic line.

Adam Hill: 00:10:56

It runs from east of London to west of London through the centre, stopping

Adam Hill: 00:11:03

at mainly a lot of new stations, but incorporating some of the old underground

Adam Hill: 00:11:08

tube stations and so on that were there.

Adam Hill: 00:11:11

And it's extraordinary getting on it the first time.

Adam Hill: 00:11:14

It really was like running after walking.

Adam Hill: 00:11:17

It was just a wonderful experience.

Adam Hill: 00:11:20

Um, and it still is.

Adam Hill: 00:11:21

I mean, a year on, my enthusiasm is undimmed.

Adam Hill: 00:11:24

But one thing about, something like that, and the reason the Elizabeth

Adam Hill: 00:11:28

line works so well as a user, as a consumer, As a rider is its frequency.

Adam Hill: 00:11:34

It not only takes you places you want to go, but it does

Adam Hill: 00:11:37

it at very regular intervals.

Adam Hill: 00:11:40

It's rare that you're waiting more than 10 minutes to get a train.

Adam Hill: 00:11:44

now what happened?

Adam Hill: 00:11:44

My commute to the office, I, I live in North London, but I come to our office,

Adam Hill: 00:11:48

which a couple of times a week, which is where I am now, which is sort of

Adam Hill: 00:11:52

to the south, uh, southeast of London.

Adam Hill: 00:11:55

I'm going right round.

Adam Hill: 00:11:56

The Elizabeth line stops about three stops away from my office.

Adam Hill: 00:12:01

The problem then is I've got to change to just to go 10 minutes on another

Adam Hill: 00:12:06

line, but it doesn't run very frequently.

Adam Hill: 00:12:09

I can't time it right leaving from home.

Adam Hill: 00:12:12

Um, so it's just not worth using in many ways because the

Adam Hill: 00:12:15

connection just isn't there.

Adam Hill: 00:12:17

Uh, for various reasons, when I leave the office to go home, I can time it.

Adam Hill: 00:12:21

It's fine.

Adam Hill: 00:12:22

So it works very well.

Adam Hill: 00:12:23

But it was just one of those little indications of how it's wonderful to

Adam Hill: 00:12:27

have these new infrastructure projects.

Adam Hill: 00:12:29

And I'm really not complaining.

Adam Hill: 00:12:31

I sound like, as we would say in England, a whinger.

Adam Hill: 00:12:35

I'm not complaining.

Adam Hill: 00:12:36

But it's sometimes if things don't quite match up, it can be frustrating

Adam Hill: 00:12:43

and very frustrating for users.

Adam Hill: 00:12:44

I think we're, we're passionate advocates of getting people onto public transport,

Adam Hill: 00:12:49

but I do understand sometimes if you're not so passionate and your car is a

Adam Hill: 00:12:53

very convenient option as it is for so many people everywhere in the world.

Adam Hill: 00:12:58

yeah, you, you do need a bit more persuasion to get on and you need

Adam Hill: 00:13:01

it to be as simple as possible from everything, from the connectivity, the

Adam Hill: 00:13:05

frequency, also the payment, of course, you know, that has to be simple too.

Adam Hill: 00:13:09

So I've got sympathy with people who are more reluctant,

Adam Hill: 00:13:13

um, public transport users.

Adam Hill: 00:13:15

Paul, we've just got to bring them on board.

Adam Hill: 00:13:17

We've just got to, uh, we've just got to keep spreading the word.

Adam Hill: 00:13:20

I'm talking too much, but can I just say the way that you bring in, um,

Adam Hill: 00:13:25

I really like the way that you have brought in travelogue and cuisine into

Adam Hill: 00:13:31

your talking about public transit.

Adam Hill: 00:13:34

I think it's a great way.

Adam Hill: 00:13:36

Not at all.

Adam Hill: 00:13:36

It's a great way of just drawing people in.

Adam Hill: 00:13:39

And maybe getting people who didn't know they were interested in public transit

Adam Hill: 00:13:44

interested, uh, because who wouldn't be?

Adam Hill: 00:13:46

You've got Paella or, uh, you know, some great shots of Lisbon

Adam Hill: 00:13:49

or wherever, wherever you are.

Adam Hill: 00:13:51

So, yeah, no, so that, but that's the thing.

Adam Hill: 00:13:55

It's getting people interested in something that, um, you know, is.

Adam Hill: 00:13:59

When it's done right, mass transit is just this extraordinary way of moving

Adam Hill: 00:14:04

people around, uh, great distances, or even quite small distances, but

Adam Hill: 00:14:07

very effectively, very efficiently.

Adam Hill: 00:14:10

It's frustrating.

Adam Hill: 00:14:11

I do understand people's frustration when it's, their experience is

Adam Hill: 00:14:14

not as good as it should be.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:16

Yeah.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:16

Yeah, you're right.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:17

And thank you for that compliment for our TV show, Transit Unplugged TV, where each

Paul Comfort: 00:14:21

month we go to a different city and we dive into their public transportation, but

Paul Comfort: 00:14:25

we also show you fun places you can go.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:28

Riding the public transportation.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:30

Again, the idea is to kind of expand upon the nuts and bolts of what

Paul Comfort: 00:14:34

it takes to run a transit system.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:36

Like you talked about the frequency, maybe the technology,

Paul Comfort: 00:14:39

um, and the headways, et cetera.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:41

And to say, Hey, you know what?

Paul Comfort: 00:14:43

Like I just did in Austin, Texas.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:45

So I was there with Dottie, who is the CEO of the transit system, Dottie Watkins.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:49

And we're at a big, at their main major bus hub.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:52

And we filmed me saying to her, Hey, I've heard about this place, Barton Springs,

Paul Comfort: 00:14:56

which is a big tourist attraction.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:58

People go and swim there.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:59

It's a cold water

Paul Comfort: 00:15:01

. It comes out of a spring.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:02

It's like 68 degrees.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:03

I want to jump in during the show, but we didn't have time.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:05

We were, we were scheduled for another event right after, but so we say,

Paul Comfort: 00:15:07

well, and I say to her as we do on every episode, but how do I get there?

Paul Comfort: 00:15:11

And then she'll say how to get there is you get on the line 30, which comes

Paul Comfort: 00:15:14

right from here every 15 minutes, and it'll take you directly and drop you

Paul Comfort: 00:15:18

off right in front of Barton Springs.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:19

So the thought is, you know, just what you said, showing the fun part,

Paul Comfort: 00:15:23

the food, the music, the culture, uh, and all of them are accessible.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:27

And without Mobility.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:29

So many people would not have access to all of that, but for

Paul Comfort: 00:15:33

those that do, and our taxpayers, we need to show them the fun side.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:37

They may not ride public transit.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:39

They may say, I don't want to spend my taxpayer subsidy

Paul Comfort: 00:15:42

dollars to subsidize people.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:44

They should charge them full freight.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:45

Well, you know what?

Paul Comfort: 00:15:46

It also helps these businesses stay.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:49

Uh, Alive, because it brings people to them.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:52

It provides employees.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:54

So for instance, you know, when I used to run the light rail system in Baltimore,

Paul Comfort: 00:15:57

one of the lines goes right to the airport, and it's not just for passengers.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:00

Uh, Ricky, who is the CEO there, said, Paul, you know, you're bringing in most

Paul Comfort: 00:16:04

of our employees, ride the light rail from Baltimore out to, so there's a

Paul Comfort: 00:16:08

lot to public transportation that the casual observer may not see, right?

Adam Hill: 00:16:14

no, absolutely.

Adam Hill: 00:16:15

But I think it's interesting.

Adam Hill: 00:16:16

The fun stuff is great.

Adam Hill: 00:16:17

And actually, I like, I really like that idea of showing people where

Adam Hill: 00:16:21

they can go on public transit.

Adam Hill: 00:16:22

But in the main, people aren't necessarily going to fun places, they're going to

Adam Hill: 00:16:26

work, they're going to school, wherever.

Adam Hill: 00:16:29

And getting people out of their cars and onto mass transit, I mean, it's just such

Adam Hill: 00:16:36

a, it's such a difficult play, I think, particularly in Many parts of the States

Adam Hill: 00:16:41

and certainly in many parts of the UK.

Adam Hill: 00:16:43

There's, you know, I live in London, so public transport is fantastic.

Adam Hill: 00:16:47

You know, you can get by without a car or driving relatively infrequently.

Adam Hill: 00:16:52

You go much further out, it's more difficult.

Adam Hill: 00:16:55

So, um, I think as well, we, and by which actually I mean me, have

Adam Hill: 00:16:59

to beware against, simply because we have such a great experience in

Adam Hill: 00:17:02

public transport, to realize that for other people, It's more of a hassle.

Adam Hill: 00:17:06

It's more difficult.

Adam Hill: 00:17:07

Um, and it's not as attractive an option.

Adam Hill: 00:17:09

So what do we do about that?

Adam Hill: 00:17:11

I think, um,

Paul Comfort: 00:17:12

Well, in, in some places, another catalyst for getting

Paul Comfort: 00:17:16

on public transit is congestion, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:17:18

In the downtowns of big cities like New York here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:21

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:22

or in London there, or in Singapore, where I was at recently with Jeremy Yap.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:26

So the mayor there of London is in charge of transport for London directly.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:30

It's a department that reports to him and it's not just over

Paul Comfort: 00:17:33

transit, it's over roadways.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:35

Traffic signals and all that.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:37

And, uh, they've had congestion charging there for quite a while, which I

Paul Comfort: 00:17:41

think people understand, but there's something new, uh, called, called an

Paul Comfort: 00:17:45

ultra low emission zone, which the mayor is putting into place there, or ULEZ.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:51

Tell us about that and what's happening.

Adam Hill: 00:17:53

Well, ULEZ is, as you suggested, it is distinct from the

Adam Hill: 00:17:56

congestion charge zone, which came first.

Adam Hill: 00:17:59

ULEZ the ultra low emission zone, um, is actually in its initial stages, which came

Adam Hill: 00:18:05

into force a couple of years ago, three, three, four years ago, um, is a zone

Adam Hill: 00:18:10

into which if your car is not compliant or your van or your truck or whatever.

Adam Hill: 00:18:16

If it's not compliant with the Ultra Low Emission Zone regulations, so, you

Adam Hill: 00:18:21

know, it has to emit a certain level of pollution, um, you have to pay 12.

Adam Hill: 00:18:26

50 a day if you want to drive your vehicle into the zone.

Adam Hill: 00:18:30

What that means is, in effect, for most of central London, and indeed

Adam Hill: 00:18:34

even where I live, which is sort of the inner suburbs of London, for the

Adam Hill: 00:18:38

last, uh, few years, Your car, your vehicle has had to be compliant.

Adam Hill: 00:18:44

So in the main, it means if you have a diesel powered vehicle, most of

Adam Hill: 00:18:47

the older ones are not compliant.

Adam Hill: 00:18:49

A lot of petrol car, but a lot of petrol cars are compliant.

Adam Hill: 00:18:53

For example, my, uh, car at the moment is about 18 years old.

Adam Hill: 00:18:57

It's a petrol car.

Adam Hill: 00:18:58

It's compliant with ULEZ so it's not the case that you have to

Adam Hill: 00:19:03

buy a new car to avoid paying 12.

Adam Hill: 00:19:06

50 a day.

Adam Hill: 00:19:07

Anyway, just in the last couple of months, we've had the great ULEZ extension,

Adam Hill: 00:19:12

which means that now ULEZ doesn't just cover the inner part of London and the

Adam Hill: 00:19:16

inner suburbs, it covers everything right out to the M25 motorway, which is the

Adam Hill: 00:19:20

orbital highway that goes around London.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:24

Can we call that a beltway here?

Paul Comfort: 00:19:25

A beltway around the city?

Paul Comfort: 00:19:27

Yeah, yeah.

Adam Hill: 00:19:27

Thank you.

Adam Hill: 00:19:29

Um, so this has been a massive political hot potato because, um, and

Adam Hill: 00:19:34

politics always comes to the, into these things as, as you well know.

Adam Hill: 00:19:38

Um, there's been huge opposition to the idea of, uh, pushing the ULEZ

Adam Hill: 00:19:43

zone out to cover the whole of London.

Adam Hill: 00:19:46

So a lot of misinformation about it, a lot of legitimate concerns as well.

Adam Hill: 00:19:50

there will be somewhat people who do have to change their vehicles because otherwise

Adam Hill: 00:19:54

they will be eligible to pay the 12.

Adam Hill: 00:19:56

50 a day, which is a lot of money.

Adam Hill: 00:19:58

Um, but equally, uh, TfL, Transport for London, estimates something

Adam Hill: 00:20:03

like 9 out of 10 existing cars will already be ULEZ compliant.

Adam Hill: 00:20:09

So, It is, uh, a worry which is perhaps out of scale with the actual problem.

Adam Hill: 00:20:16

That said, it's a very emotive thing.

Adam Hill: 00:20:18

People feeling they're not, they're not able to drive their car

Adam Hill: 00:20:21

where they want, when they want.

Adam Hill: 00:20:23

and it's definitely, that has definitely affected current political, uh, debate

Adam Hill: 00:20:28

and discourse in the UK because, uh, we had a, uh, what's called a by

Adam Hill: 00:20:33

election, which is where a sitting member of parliament, in this case

Adam Hill: 00:20:38

Boris Johnson, who used to be the prime minister, leaves their constituency.

Adam Hill: 00:20:42

They say, I don't want to be an MP anymore, so you have to vote a new one

Adam Hill: 00:20:45

in, but it doesn't come, uh, after, you know, in a four year election cycle.

Adam Hill: 00:20:50

It comes in the right in the middle of a parliament.

Adam Hill: 00:20:52

Um, and quite often the Opposition party will win these elections because they

Adam Hill: 00:20:57

can often be protest votes and so on.

Adam Hill: 00:21:00

It was widely assumed that the Labour party, the opposition party, would

Adam Hill: 00:21:03

win the constituency called Uxbridge.

Adam Hill: 00:21:06

In effect, by about 500 votes, Boris Johnson's party won.

Adam Hill: 00:21:10

Now this was something of a surprise and part of the reason for it was

Adam Hill: 00:21:15

that, um, a, an anti ULEZ expansion mobilization went on Uxbridge falls

Adam Hill: 00:21:23

into the new expanded, uh, ULEZ zone.

Adam Hill: 00:21:26

So there was, um, that was able to be, uh, weaponized, if you like, as

Adam Hill: 00:21:31

a political issue, despite the fact it wasn't necessarily that germane.

Adam Hill: 00:21:36

But nonetheless, it was very, very powerful.

Adam Hill: 00:21:38

Um, and I think as a result, political parties in the UK, um, have looked

Adam Hill: 00:21:43

at that and said, hang on, maybe this, uh, and maybe this ULEZ thing,

Adam Hill: 00:21:49

maybe people don't want to be told that they can't drive their car.

Adam Hill: 00:21:53

Maybe they don't like, uh, the expansion.

Adam Hill: 00:21:57

Um, and this has fed into a few sort of big announcements that

Adam Hill: 00:22:00

we've had here over the last month.

Adam Hill: 00:22:01

Yes,

Paul Comfort: 00:22:02

I just saw that.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:03

Yeah.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:03

Your prime minister made an announcement.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:05

Yeah.

Adam Hill: 00:22:06

Absolutely.

Adam Hill: 00:22:06

So we've revised some net zero targets.

Adam Hill: 00:22:09

We've revised some green targets.

Adam Hill: 00:22:11

And we're now, you know, the prime minister has been talking about

Adam Hill: 00:22:14

the fact there's a, in inverted commas, a war on motorists.

Adam Hill: 00:22:18

And this is very, very attractive to a lot of people because loads

Adam Hill: 00:22:22

of people drive cars and they are.

Adam Hill: 00:22:23

I think they suddenly think, wow we're under attack, you know, I don't think

Adam Hill: 00:22:28

the are this is politicizing, but it, and it might be quite smart politicizing,

Adam Hill: 00:22:33

but it's, um, it's, I think, a good illustration of the way that, um, if

Adam Hill: 00:22:38

you seek to impose any restriction on the way we move around our, as we

Adam Hill: 00:22:44

see it, our individual freedom, that does come fraught with political risk.

Adam Hill: 00:22:48

I think this is also why the, the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan,

Adam Hill: 00:22:51

has actually been quite bold.

Adam Hill: 00:22:53

And again, whether you agree with him or not, it is undoubtedly bold

Adam Hill: 00:22:56

to extend the ULEZ zone, because it hasn't been fantastically popular.

Adam Hill: 00:23:02

You know, so many things wrapped in there.

Adam Hill: 00:23:03

And I think another thing, and Paul, sorry, I am, I am going on.

Adam Hill: 00:23:06

So please, this is interesting though.

Adam Hill: 00:23:08

Yeah.

Adam Hill: 00:23:09

But if, uh, one of the really interesting things, as we were saying before, how

Adam Hill: 00:23:13

do we get people out of their cars?

Adam Hill: 00:23:14

How do we get them to, um, use public transit?

Adam Hill: 00:23:18

Well, We can get them out of the cars by penalising them by saying, you know,

Adam Hill: 00:23:22

if your car doesn't comply with these emissions standards, you need to pay 12.

Adam Hill: 00:23:26

50 a day.

Adam Hill: 00:23:27

And that will be a natural way of pushing people onto public transport.

Adam Hill: 00:23:30

But the public transport has to exist.

Adam Hill: 00:23:33

The connectivity has to be there for those people.

Adam Hill: 00:23:35

Otherwise, they will either get resentful, not not unreasonably, if they feel

Adam Hill: 00:23:39

they're, um, uh, you know, um, being discriminated against in some way, um, or

Adam Hill: 00:23:46

I guess they just won't they won't comply.

Adam Hill: 00:23:49

And I think part of the reason the ULEZ expansion, perhaps, will, uh,

Adam Hill: 00:23:54

succeed, and will, I think, win people over, is that there is a pledge by the

Adam Hill: 00:23:59

Mayor of London to use the money that is taken from it to invest in public

Adam Hill: 00:24:04

transit around London, so in the outer suburbs, where the, the connectivity is

Adam Hill: 00:24:09

perhaps not as good, certainly not as good as it is in the centre of London.

Adam Hill: 00:24:13

So that's a really interesting idea.

Adam Hill: 00:24:15

That's an interesting link, a direct link between you get out of your car and we

Adam Hill: 00:24:21

are going to invest in public transport.

Adam Hill: 00:24:23

And I think that's got to be the way forward.

Adam Hill: 00:24:25

There's no point just penalising people.

Adam Hill: 00:24:28

There has to be some, um, they've got to see some gain.

Adam Hill: 00:24:31

so we'll see.

Adam Hill: 00:24:32

It's very, very early days.

Adam Hill: 00:24:34

The expansion has only been in the last year or so.

Adam Hill: 00:24:37

Uh, the Mayor of London is up for re election, uh, next year.

Adam Hill: 00:24:41

We also have a general election in the UK next year.

Adam Hill: 00:24:44

We'll see.

Adam Hill: 00:24:44

There's a lot of politics, but I think I do guarantee that motorists are going to

Adam Hill: 00:24:50

be very much at the center of politics in the UK for the next year, 18 months,

Adam Hill: 00:24:59

because they're a powerful constituency.

Adam Hill: 00:25:01

Most of us are motorists.

Adam Hill: 00:25:03

as well as being other things.

Adam Hill: 00:25:04

We're also cyclists, we're pedestrians, we're public transport, we're parents.

Adam Hill: 00:25:08

So, you know, arguments around, better air quality.

Adam Hill: 00:25:12

Improved road safety.

Adam Hill: 00:25:14

They're also very powerful as well.

Adam Hill: 00:25:16

They're powerful arguments.

Adam Hill: 00:25:18

People get them.

Adam Hill: 00:25:19

So there's a lot of different factors at play, I think, certainly here.

Adam Hill: 00:25:23

And, you know, this is a microcosm, obviously, of what's

Adam Hill: 00:25:25

going on in many other countries.

Adam Hill: 00:25:27

I'm very interested to see how the New York City congestion zone pans out.

Adam Hill: 00:25:32

I'm fascinated by the idea of the motorists in the capital of the world

Adam Hill: 00:25:36

being told where they can drive.

Adam Hill: 00:25:39

How's, I mean, what do you think?

Adam Hill: 00:25:40

How's that going to go down?

Paul Comfort: 00:25:42

Well, it's, it's, um, it's moving forward

Paul Comfort: 00:25:44

in New York City as we speak.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:45

It was passed and adopted and allowed, uh, and, uh, my understanding is,

Paul Comfort: 00:25:50

you know, they're putting up cameras, et cetera, uh, but it is have, you

Paul Comfort: 00:25:53

know, the people in New Jersey are suing New York because a lot of them

Paul Comfort: 00:25:57

are going to have to pay going in.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:58

So, you know, In the end, like most things here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:00

S., it'll probably be decided by the courts.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:03

So, uh, but thank you, Adam.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:05

This has been a fascinating look at comparison and contrast, I think,

Paul Comfort: 00:26:09

between what's happening in public transportation here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:12

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:13

and there in, in, uh, what we call Great Britain, which I know

Paul Comfort: 00:26:15

is, uh, now the United Kingdom.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:17

But really, we talked a lot about what's happening in England,

Paul Comfort: 00:26:20

uh, which is the basis of it.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:21

And, uh, so.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:22

Thank you for this great talk, and if people want to read more about

Paul Comfort: 00:26:26

this type of things, they of course can subscribe to your magazine, ITS

Paul Comfort: 00:26:30

International, and we'll have information on the show notes about how to do that.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:34

Thank you again, Adam.

Adam Hill: 00:26:35

Thank you, Paul.

Adam Hill: 00:26:35

It's been an absolute pleasure.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:26:39

Hi, this is Mike Bismeyer and this is Mike's Minute

Mike Bismeyer: 00:26:40

where we talk about leadership, mentorship and kindness with the hopes

Mike Bismeyer: 00:26:43

it'll inspire you to pay it forward.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:26:45

It was great today to hear Paul and Adam talk about the fun stuff of transit as I'm

Mike Bismeyer: 00:26:49

excited to be attending the Canadian Urban Transit Association's fall conference

Mike Bismeyer: 00:26:53

and trade show this week, participating on a leadership panel with Paul as

Mike Bismeyer: 00:26:57

well as speaking to the Young Leaders Summit about the power of mentorship

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:00

and it is always fun to be here.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:02

It's a perfect parlay for all the subjects I talk about when we cover

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:05

leadership, mentorship, and kindness.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:07

I wanted to talk a bit about the Young Leaders Summit and those young leaders

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:11

that we are surrounded with at the agencies and companies we represent.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:14

It's always inspiring to see the passion and excitement that many

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:16

new folks or early career folks have, the ideas they bring, and the

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:20

ambition they have to be changemakers.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:22

It also reiterates the importance to share and pass on knowledge,

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:25

be willing to help and listen.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:26

Leadership and mentorship can take on many forms, and both

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:29

are always two way streets.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:31

But the example I will use in terms of leadership is with

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:34

this Young Leaders Summit.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:35

The young leaders that have made up part of the steering committee and

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:37

taken the lead on organizing this particular summit for 63 delegates,

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:41

building an incredibly action packed few days of transit related sessions,

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:45

learnings, and team building exercises.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:47

The idea is, of course, to encourage the future generation of leaders

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:51

and to build excitement for transit in general and to have folks

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:54

consider transit as a career path.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:56

It's always my honour to be involved in these summits and have an opportunity

Mike Bismeyer: 00:27:59

to address the young leader delegates about the values of mentorship and

Mike Bismeyer: 00:28:03

networking, and I truly believe that peer to peer relationships, learning

Mike Bismeyer: 00:28:07

and sharing in our industry fall right into that fun stuff category.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:28:10

As I sign off, I'm headed to ride the new Valley Line Southeast Light Rail that

Mike Bismeyer: 00:28:14

opened just last week here in the host city of Edmonton and have some more fun.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:28:18

Thanks for listening.

Mike Bismeyer: 00:28:19

Kindness is cool.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:23

Hi.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:23

This is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:27

Thank you for listening to today's show.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:29

And a special thanks to our guest Adam Hill Editor in Chief

Tris Hussey: 00:28:33

of ITS International Magazine.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:35

And coming up next week on the show, Paul's talking with Scott Smith,

Tris Hussey: 00:28:38

former CEO of Valley Metro in Arizona.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:42

While you're listening to the podcast.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:43

If you could do us a favor by rating and reviewing us wherever you listen

Tris Hussey: 00:28:47

to the show, we'd really appreciate it.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:49

Rating and reviewing the show helps other people find Transit Unplugged and become

Tris Hussey: 00:28:54

part of our transit enthusiast community.

Tris Hussey: 00:28:56

If you have a question comment, or I'd like to be a guest on the

Tris Hussey: 00:28:59

show, feel free to email us anytime at info at transit unplugged.

Tris Hussey: 00:29:04

Dot com.

Tris Hussey: 00:29:06

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Tris Hussey: 00:29:08

At Modaxo we're passionate about moving the world's people.

Tris Hussey: 00:29:12

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Tris Hussey: 00:29:16

So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.