Transit Insights from Hong Kong, Singapore, and London with Adam Leishman

Paul Comfort: 00:00:05

I'm Paul Comfort, and this is Transit Unplugged, the

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world's leading transit executive podcast, now in our seventh season.

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How would you like to find out all about how a public transit system in

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one of the major cities in the world takes no subsidy from the government?

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How do they do that?

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We'll tell you today how it's done with Adam Leishman.

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Adam has a great history.

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He started out in Australia, with his grandfather's bus company, then moved

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to London where he took over Tower Transit, and then they moved into

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Singapore, and now he's been in Hong Kong living the car free lifestyle

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for over eight years now, and talks to us about how public transportation

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works in three of the world's great public transportation cities,

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London, Singapore, and now Hong Kong.

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He is the CEO of Bravo Holdings, which is the owner of CityBus

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and Bravo Media in Hong Kong.

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Nine out of 10 trips taken in the City of Hong Kong are taken on public transit.

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His operation, one of the three companies that operates under

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contracts with the government, transports a million passengers a day.

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Today, he's going to dive into how they operate their 1700 buses, how the whole

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tender system works in Hong Kong, what we can learn from MTR, who operates

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the rail system there, and how they operate with transit oriented development

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that helps subsidize the train system.

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So many things we're going to dive into today in an area of

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the world which we haven't talked much about here on the podcast.

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Join us on this adventurous conversation on Transit Unplugged.

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Now, Adam Leishman.

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I'm excited to talk about public transportation in Hong Kong in particular.

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We've never covered that on Transit Unplugged.

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You're our first guest from there.

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And so thank you again for sharing with us.

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And why don't you open us up with, tell us some about Hong Kong.

Adam Leishman: 00:01:45

I moved to Hong Kong about three and a half years ago in

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the middle of, COVID, which was an interesting time to change countries.

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And was part of a group that purchased the second largest bus operator in Hong Kong.

Adam Leishman: 00:01:58

there's two large bus operators running the franchise bus services in Hong Kong.

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and Hong Kong is, by many measures, considered the number one public

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transport city in the world.

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nine out of every ten trips In Hong Kong occur on public transport, which as an

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Australian, and in the U S very similar to Australia, you know, having nine out

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of every 10 trips on public transport is kind of a bit, hard to comprehend.

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so when I moved here and I moved from London, actually, I was running buses

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in London and Singapore previously, but it was a real, you know, eye opener,

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the business that I'm responsible for here, Citybus moves about a

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million people every day on 1, 700 buses, with about 5, 000 staff here.

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and, you know, it's just a great system to be a part of.

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the system is very unusual to a lot of the systems I've been a

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part of previously, and that is because it's a commercial system.

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one of the few commercially run bus systems in the world, actually,

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and particularly on the back of COVID, I don't think there's many

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left, if any others at the moment, that aren't heavily subsidized.

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We are, fully dependent on the farebox, and run as a commercial operation.

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We took a big hit during COVID when, the ridership went down dramatically.

Adam Leishman: 00:03:17

but we've weathered that storm and we've come through and now,

Adam Leishman: 00:03:20

the future's looking a lot better.

Adam Leishman: 00:03:22

but yeah, it's a commercial system, so there's franchise operators, There's

Adam Leishman: 00:03:27

three franchise holders of the buses, and then there's the MTR which runs

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all the underground or the tube system.

Adam Leishman: 00:03:35

So we as bus operators need to rely on the farebox, but we also have, you

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know, a lot more say in how things are done here as opposed to if it's

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under a contract model, for example.

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So, you know, by way of an example, we're responsible for all the advertising,

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we're responsible for, the bus shelters and the bus poles and the marketing,

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we're responsible, for the ticketing, the app, so there's a broader responsibility

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than you would find in a normal kind of contracted operating environment.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:06

That's interesting.

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That's a lot of information, Adam.

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Thanks.

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I want to unpack it a little bit if we can.

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So you all operate as one of three providers, and then there's MTR does

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the rail, is that what you said?

Adam Leishman: 00:04:16

Yes.

Adam Leishman: 00:04:16

And there's minibuses as well, which are operated by separate companies.

Adam Leishman: 00:04:21

but overall, you know, between the minibuses, the franchise

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buses, the franchise buses are mostly double deck, I would say.

Adam Leishman: 00:04:27

the public transport, and there's a lot of ferries as well.

Adam Leishman: 00:04:30

But let's say roughly 50 percent in the bus system, 50 percent in

Adam Leishman: 00:04:33

the rail system of the trips taken.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:35

That's good.

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You bid on this and the Hong Kong government selects you all for

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like, what, five to seven year contracts or how does that work?

Adam Leishman: 00:04:41

no, so we renegotiated last year a new 10 year franchise.

Adam Leishman: 00:04:47

Okay.

Adam Leishman: 00:04:47

We have two contracts, which, both go for 10 years from last

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year, so we're one year into that.

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and it's generally renegotiated, each time that comes around,

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same with the other operators.

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And on the rail side, it's slightly different.

Adam Leishman: 00:05:02

the MTR is, I think about 60 65 percent owned by the government.

Adam Leishman: 00:05:07

and that has a special relationship where they are responsible for the

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development of the MTR system, the underground system, and it's also

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attached to property rights around the stations, which is a very interesting

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way and forward thinking way of funding a lot of the rail infrastructure.

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you see this fantastic rail system that's been funded by the development

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of the stations where they'll build retail and commercial and residential

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and then have an ongoing income supply that subsidizes the operation itself.

Adam Leishman: 00:05:43

So it's a very interesting model that they've developed in Hong Kong.

Paul Comfort: 00:05:46

Yeah, it is.

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It's really a model, I think, that other countries are looking at.

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I know here in the U.

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S., there's been a lot of studies done on that model.

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So, MTR also operates the Elizabeth line.

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in London for Transport for London.

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I've ridden on that.

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We've interviewed the managing director, had him on our podcast before.

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So, transit oriented development there.

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So, is the rail system the same as buses?

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It operates completely on, the revenue they bring in from, retail and,

Paul Comfort: 00:06:14

leases and, farebox and the government doesn't have to directly subsidize it?

Adam Leishman: 00:06:17

Yeah, so the MTR and the buses are both, I guess

Adam Leishman: 00:06:21

you'd say, commercial operations.

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However, the big difference is the MTR has property rights and they're

Adam Leishman: 00:06:27

able to, generate other income.

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whereas the bus operation here, we have limited other income sources,

Adam Leishman: 00:06:33

which is something I'm exploring and looking at, setting up other things.

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And actually, we just set up a media business, which is going pretty well.

Adam Leishman: 00:06:40

So, we have the opportunity to do other things to help support the operations

Adam Leishman: 00:06:45

themselves because, even in Hong Kong where we've been commercial for 90

Adam Leishman: 00:06:49

years, actually we've just celebrated 90 years of buses in Hong Kong, it's at

Adam Leishman: 00:06:54

a point where it has been challenging the last few years and with COVID we

Adam Leishman: 00:06:58

really, got tested, let's say, so it's a time to kind of recalibrate, I think.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:04

Right.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:05

Okay.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:05

Let's switch back to buses then.

Paul Comfort: 00:07:07

So you operate completely without government subsidy, but

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you have, a franchise for like certain routes in certain areas.

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So you don't have competitor bus companies coming in on your routes.

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Is that right?

Paul Comfort: 00:07:17

Or do you share stops and hubs?

Adam Leishman: 00:07:19

Actually, that sounds like a simple question.

Adam Leishman: 00:07:23

So we have the exclusive rights on particular routes, with a few exceptions.

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There's some routes across the harbour.

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So Hong Kong, from a geographic perspective, is, there was an island.

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where we kind of historically dominated and provided the operation

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on the island, and then there was the Mainland that's kind of attached

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to China, but is Hong Kong.

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Now the tunnels, there's kind of like, we, cross over and go either side.

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So some of those tunnel crossings, we operate 50 50.

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So you have the one route number, but actually we do half of it and

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KMB does the other half of it.

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but most of the routes will have like our routes and they'll have their routes.

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In addition to that, however, there's a minibus network that emerged over the

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years, and the minibus has, think of it like a demand responsive service,

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that before demand responsive was even being talked about with technology,

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that's the minibus system in Hong Kong.

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So, there is a bit of competition between the big double deck

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buses and the minibuses.

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There are some routes that the big buses can't go, the

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minibuses can, which makes sense.

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But then there's there's also competition and has been historically between

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the rail network and the bus network.

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As you can imagine, with a full commercial system, where initially buses

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dominated, as the rail system expanded, they were taking away customers from

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the bus system, and of course, the bus operators, which were privately held,

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saw them as a competitor, as a threat, so what emerged over time was almost

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two competing systems or networks, one on the road and one on the rail system,

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and of course, where we are today, looking at the environment, looking at

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congestion, looking at all these other things, since we've got here, we've

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tried to kind of coordinate that a lot more between the modes because actually

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You don't want buses and rail competing.

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You want them working together and complementing each other as a body.

Adam Leishman: 00:09:17

So we've been taking some steps to try to help that happen.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:20

this is so interesting to me because it's such a different model.

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So Adam, one other source of revenue that you've mentioned to me that you

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all have been able to do to kind of help your company is you have a media company.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:29

What's that about?

Adam Leishman: 00:09:30

two and a half years ago, during COVID, we had a challenge

Adam Leishman: 00:09:34

with the advertising on the buses.

Adam Leishman: 00:09:36

Having experienced in London what was possible and the tremendous job

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that's done there, I just wasn't happy with the quality that we

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were getting, nor the innovation.

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So we set up a media business and started doing it ourselves on the

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buses, really pushing the limits when it came to creativity and Ensuring

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that the quality was second to none.

Adam Leishman: 00:09:57

our competitor, the MTR, because remember the buses and the trains we kind of

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compete, but we kind of work together.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:03

and I've been trying to get as much closer and, you know, we've done some good

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things together because, we grow the pie, let's say together, it's much smarter.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:10

they were obviously impressed with what we'd been doing on the buses and asked

Adam Leishman: 00:10:13

us to bid in their upcoming tender.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:15

And we won 20 percent of their system.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:17

So we're now advertising on the train stations and the

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trains and the light rail.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:22

that business in the space of two and a half years has, become the second

Adam Leishman: 00:10:25

largest advertising agency in Hong Kong.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:28

And we're happy to host Out of Home Advertising, Congress

Adam Leishman: 00:10:32

tomorrow, in Hong Kong.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:33

So that's been a really wild ride, very exciting.

Adam Leishman: 00:10:36

And I would have never guessed that I'd be moving into advertising,

Adam Leishman: 00:10:39

but it's been fantastic.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:40

It reminds me of, Sir Richard Branson.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:42

I'm listening to his life story now, his autobiography

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and listening to him read it.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:47

And that's kind of the way he was, you know, he just continued to look for

Paul Comfort: 00:10:50

vertical expansion opportunities, right?

Adam Leishman: 00:10:52

and I guess in many ways, like, I got into the transport

Adam Leishman: 00:10:56

space because my family was in it, but I had a career before that.

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And I guess deep down I'm an entrepreneur that happens to be

Adam Leishman: 00:11:04

in transport and now I've grown to love and see the value of it, but

Adam Leishman: 00:11:07

I always see opportunities as well.

Paul Comfort: 00:11:10

That's amazing, man.

Paul Comfort: 00:11:11

So, here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:11:12

S., you have another company, right, that you founded?

Paul Comfort: 00:11:15

Tell us about that company.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:16

Yeah, so Ascendal, my company, which has an interest in Hong

Adam Leishman: 00:11:19

Kong, but has other operations in the U.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:22

K., Chile.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:23

And last year, we bought a very small business in the East Coast of the U.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:27

S.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:27

we've got, three contracts, soon to be four contracts in Florida and Georgia.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:32

we've had a presence in the U.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:33

S.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:33

for going on five years now, doing a bit of consulting work for various

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authorities and operators, specializing in BRT and strategies around property

Adam Leishman: 00:11:43

around BRT, and, various other things, hydrogen, but it's nice to put the toe

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in the water when it comes to operations, which is really our core business.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:53

And that's going really well.

Adam Leishman: 00:11:54

it is good to get a more in depth understanding of how things work in

Adam Leishman: 00:11:58

the US market, which is probably more similar to what I'm used to from my time

Adam Leishman: 00:12:03

in Australia and London and Singapore.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:05

Hong Kong's really the exception.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:07

It's quite unique.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:08

So, so yeah, it's really exciting to put the toe in the water and

Adam Leishman: 00:12:12

you know, things are going well.

Paul Comfort: 00:12:13

is your ridership back up to, like, 2019 levels pre pandemic,

Paul Comfort: 00:12:17

do you know, on your system, or close?

Paul Comfort: 00:12:19

Yeah,

Adam Leishman: 00:12:20

I think things have changed a little bit.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:22

We're probably like 7 8 percent down on where we were pre pandemic.

Paul Comfort: 00:12:26

Okay, well that's not too bad.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:27

It's not too bad, but I think there's been a bit

Adam Leishman: 00:12:29

of change in travel patterns.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:31

There's also been a bit of rationalization of services.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:33

So it's hard to put the, you know, exactly what the breakup of that is.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:38

And then also the airport is still, recovering, I mean, it was one

Adam Leishman: 00:12:42

of the, I think it was the number one visited city in the world.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:45

I think we had something like 60 million visitors a year.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:48

and, you know, we're not quite back up to those levels yet either.

Adam Leishman: 00:12:51

So we also have the exclusive rights from the airport to Hong Kong Island and

Adam Leishman: 00:12:56

Kowloon South, so we're susceptible to, what's happening at the airport as well.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:01

But with nine out of 10 trips happening, riding the

Paul Comfort: 00:13:05

bus, I mean, that's amazing, Adam.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:07

the population really is into public transit.

Adam Leishman: 00:13:10

Oh, I mean, some of our buses, you're getting, 60, 70, even

Adam Leishman: 00:13:13

up to 80 percent occupancy on average.

Adam Leishman: 00:13:15

You know, sometimes when you're in business, you forget

Adam Leishman: 00:13:18

about why you're in business.

Adam Leishman: 00:13:19

and I think public transport and buses are such a critical part of society,

Adam Leishman: 00:13:24

and we make such an impact in not only the people we serve, but also the people

Adam Leishman: 00:13:28

that work for us and their families.

Adam Leishman: 00:13:31

And, you know, my father and my grandfather, our family's been in buses

Adam Leishman: 00:13:35

in Australia for over 50 years now, and, that's something I learned from watching

Adam Leishman: 00:13:39

my father is, how important it is to look after the people that work for

Adam Leishman: 00:13:43

you, and to always remember why you're doing what you're doing, so, you know.

Adam Leishman: 00:13:47

I think we play such an important role in society,

Paul Comfort: 00:13:50

And so, since we're on that topic, I did want to dive into

Paul Comfort: 00:13:53

that a little bit, delve into your background and history and your families.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:56

You have a rich history.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:57

Why don't you tell us more about that?

Adam Leishman: 00:13:59

Yeah, yeah.

Adam Leishman: 00:13:59

So my grandfather, 50 years ago, bought a business that was struggling.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:03

my father left college to go help him fix it.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:06

They did.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:06

This was in, just north of Sydney in Australia.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:09

my father in 96 started a company with the first contracted out service in Perth

Adam Leishman: 00:14:16

in Western Australia, and, did very well.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:19

I was growing up around a depot.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:21

I was seeing how the buses operate from a young, young age

Adam Leishman: 00:14:26

and learn a lot from my father.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:27

And, you know, I think compassion is a good word you used before.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:31

But also leadership, you know, the way he respected his people and treated

Adam Leishman: 00:14:35

them very well, I think, is one of the reasons he was so successful

Adam Leishman: 00:14:39

and I've tried to emulate that.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:40

And then what happened to, how long were you there?

Paul Comfort: 00:14:42

Where did you go from there?

Paul Comfort: 00:14:44

And cause you were involved in Tower Transit for a while, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:14:46

walk us through your career path.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:48

Okay.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:48

So Transit Systems was the name of the company in Australia.

Adam Leishman: 00:14:51

I helped to set up a head office and grow that business in Australia and

Adam Leishman: 00:14:55

then in 2013, an opportunity came up for us to expand, back to the motherland,

Adam Leishman: 00:15:00

let's say, and, we went to London and we bought a business there that was

Adam Leishman: 00:15:05

running 500 red buses, double deck mostly, for Transport for London.

Adam Leishman: 00:15:10

And, I relocated to run that business, became the CEO of Tower Transit, and

Adam Leishman: 00:15:14

absolutely had my eyes opened, coming from Australia to London, London Red

Adam Leishman: 00:15:19

Buses, the iconic buses, what other city in the world is, the icon is a bus.

Adam Leishman: 00:15:24

and it was just an amazing system to be a part of.

Adam Leishman: 00:15:27

I learned so much from Transport for London and the people

Adam Leishman: 00:15:29

there, they treated me so well.

Adam Leishman: 00:15:32

And, you know, I was able to, well, we, the team I was with were, were able to

Adam Leishman: 00:15:36

turn around what was a struggling business at the time, turn it into one of the

Adam Leishman: 00:15:40

top operators in London, and including running hydrogen buses and various

Adam Leishman: 00:15:45

things, which I can talk about later.

Adam Leishman: 00:15:46

And then in 2015, you know, I spent a lot of time with the Singapore

Adam Leishman: 00:15:53

government, giving them, you know, some thoughts around the optimal structure

Adam Leishman: 00:15:58

when it comes to governance of buses, and they opened up their market to

Adam Leishman: 00:16:02

international competition in 2015.

Adam Leishman: 00:16:05

There were 11 bidders.

Adam Leishman: 00:16:06

for a 400 bus contract, the first one, and we were very lucky to be

Adam Leishman: 00:16:10

successful in winning that one.

Adam Leishman: 00:16:12

so, you know, that's kind of, when the global operators, Stood up and said,

Adam Leishman: 00:16:17

who are these guys that have just popped up and won this contract in Singapore?

Adam Leishman: 00:16:21

but that was a life changing experience for me and that really where, I realized

Adam Leishman: 00:16:26

the true value of public transport to a city and what it can unleash and

Adam Leishman: 00:16:30

the value it can create for the people that live there in so many areas.

Adam Leishman: 00:16:34

You know, if you, ask me, what's something that can help with the environment,

Adam Leishman: 00:16:39

that can help with congestion, that can help with health, that can help

Adam Leishman: 00:16:42

with economic development, help with, lifestyle, and the list goes on and on

Adam Leishman: 00:16:46

and on, and I would say, well, there's nothing that can do all of that.

Adam Leishman: 00:16:50

But actually, public transport helps all of those things, and it's quite

Adam Leishman: 00:16:55

extraordinary when you put it in that context, that public transport done well

Adam Leishman: 00:16:59

can really transform an entire city.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:02

And so I saw that kind of firsthand.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:04

Singapore was already a great city when it came to public transport.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:08

But they aspired to be even greater.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:10

And so they really transformed their bus system at that time.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:14

New buses came in, the network expanded, new depots were built,

Adam Leishman: 00:17:18

the customer experience was brought to another level, the information

Adam Leishman: 00:17:22

availability, just everything.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:24

we were at the forefront of that, I even remember at one point it

Adam Leishman: 00:17:27

was just a surreal experience.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:29

I got into an Uber and the driver realized that I was the CEO of Tower Transit and we

Adam Leishman: 00:17:33

had such a profile in Singapore because, you know, the buses meant so much to the

Adam Leishman: 00:17:38

city and there was so much attention.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:39

I mean, this guy, you know, he was squealing with excitement that I was in

Adam Leishman: 00:17:43

his car and I'm just like, this is weird, you know, but it was a great experience.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:47

and really, at that point, I realised I want to dedicate my career to this

Adam Leishman: 00:17:51

because, you know, if I can take these learnings and transpose them

Adam Leishman: 00:17:55

into other cities, the impact we can have is dramatic, is dramatic.

Adam Leishman: 00:17:59

And particularly when you overarch that with a rethinking of how we

Adam Leishman: 00:18:04

do planning and urban development.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:06

And I saw some great examples in London, like King's Cross,

Adam Leishman: 00:18:09

for example, where you turn in transport hubs into community hubs.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:14

And where people want to live and be because it's the exciting place,

Adam Leishman: 00:18:17

it's connected, you don't need a car.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:19

and you can turn really down and out places in a city.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:22

All of a sudden they become the place you want to be because you don't need a car.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:27

You've got all the action that you need and walking distance.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:29

And if you need to go further, you've got every transport mode at your availability.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:33

So yeah, very exciting journey.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:35

I sold that business in 2018, Ascend, Tower Transit, back to the partners so

Adam Leishman: 00:18:39

that they could then, roll Tower Transit back into the Australian company and

Adam Leishman: 00:18:45

they did a deal with a listed company and that's how they became a listed company.

Adam Leishman: 00:18:51

At the time I didn't really want to work in a listed company

Adam Leishman: 00:18:54

environment so I formed a Sendle and then the Hong Kong opportunity

Adam Leishman: 00:18:58

came up and the rest is history.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:00

What a story, Adam.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:01

And you know, I was thinking while you were talking, you have worked

Paul Comfort: 00:19:04

in senior positions in three of the world's greatest transit cities.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:08

London, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

Adam Leishman: 00:19:10

It has been amazing.

Adam Leishman: 00:19:12

I pinched myself some days, and not only worked in, I was the

Adam Leishman: 00:19:16

CEO of companies running buses in each three of those cities.

Adam Leishman: 00:19:20

And I did some maths the other day and worked out that in the

Adam Leishman: 00:19:22

last 10 years I've moved over 1.8 billion people, which, Adam.

Adam Leishman: 00:19:28

If you had asked me that 10 years ago, I would have never

Adam Leishman: 00:19:31

predicted what I would have done.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:33

Not many people can say that.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:35

That's wild.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:36

I guess in our remaining minutes, you mentioned that you have been involved with

Paul Comfort: 00:19:40

hydrogen way back when, which of course is coming into fruition here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:44

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:44

and Canada, especially people are really leaning into that as a new, bleeding

Paul Comfort: 00:19:48

edge or leading edge technology.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:50

What else do you see for the industry going forward?

Paul Comfort: 00:19:52

Whether it's technology, whether it's, transit oriented development for around

Paul Comfort: 00:19:56

the world, what are some of the hot trends you see happening right now?

Adam Leishman: 00:19:59

yeah, I mean, I was running hydrogen from 2013 in London.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:02

I've just brought it into Hong Kong actually last year.

Paul Comfort: 00:20:06

Is it working good for you there?

Adam Leishman: 00:20:07

Yeah, it's only been going for a few months, but it's doing well.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:11

And the fans in Hong Kong, I mean, the streets align when we bring a

Adam Leishman: 00:20:16

new bus out, and particularly when it's the first tri axle hydrogen

Adam Leishman: 00:20:19

double deck bus in the world.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:21

People are like lining up with their cameras, waiting all

Adam Leishman: 00:20:24

hours, so it's an exciting place.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:25

But with regards to trends, I mean, obviously there's the big trend

Adam Leishman: 00:20:30

to zero emission, but I think.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:31

As an industry, we need to get better at telling the narrative.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:34

It's not just about zero emission.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:36

That doesn't fix all of our problems.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:38

Actually, public transport itself and mode shift and getting people out of

Adam Leishman: 00:20:43

cars and into buses and trains can have as much, if not more, impact than

Adam Leishman: 00:20:49

turning an entire fleet zero emission.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:52

Particularly, you know, at the early stages of this transition,

Adam Leishman: 00:20:55

there's plenty of teething issues.

Adam Leishman: 00:20:57

And if things don't go well, and actually people stop using the bus and start using

Adam Leishman: 00:21:02

their car, then we're in a worse position.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:05

so I always say hasten slowly when it comes to new technology, but I

Adam Leishman: 00:21:09

think what we shouldn't be hastening, what we should be pushing super hard

Adam Leishman: 00:21:13

is expansion of public transport, and we've got to make it sexy.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:18

You know, the perception of public transport.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:20

you know, where I come from in Australia, and I think U.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:23

S.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:23

is very similar with very big spread out cities where

Adam Leishman: 00:21:27

people are very car dependent.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:28

A lot of the developing world rely heavily on buses in particular,

Adam Leishman: 00:21:33

but they aspire to have cars.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:35

It's a sign of wealth.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:36

there was a very interesting study I saw a few years ago about The car

Adam Leishman: 00:21:40

desirability, and in Europe and cities like that, where there was good public

Adam Leishman: 00:21:45

transport systems, and it was in London, it was seen to be, okay and acceptable

Adam Leishman: 00:21:49

to use a public transport system, car desirability was actually low.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:53

And I haven't had a car for eight years, because I love not

Adam Leishman: 00:21:56

having a car and moving around.

Adam Leishman: 00:21:57

But actually, in the developing world and in the US and Australia, where

Adam Leishman: 00:22:02

we have very spread out cities, you know, car desirability very high.

Adam Leishman: 00:22:07

And I think that's a shame and something that our industry should really focus

Adam Leishman: 00:22:11

on, because we have so much to offer.

Adam Leishman: 00:22:13

And when it's done well, it's kind of the silver bullet in many ways

Adam Leishman: 00:22:18

to a lot of the city's problems.

Adam Leishman: 00:22:20

And we don't shout that enough.

Adam Leishman: 00:22:22

We don't claim that position enough because I think we really should be

Adam Leishman: 00:22:27

because there's so many benefits that come from improving the perception of

Adam Leishman: 00:22:31

public transport and delivering that.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:33

That is very well said.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:34

I've heard, um, Other folks in the industry, leaders in the industry, global

Paul Comfort: 00:22:39

leaders, say very similar things, uh, that, you know, let's not, let's not

Paul Comfort: 00:22:44

make that the end all, be all, do all, zero emission, really the end all, be

Paul Comfort: 00:22:48

all, do all is the silver bullet, public transit, and that's just a way to make

Paul Comfort: 00:22:51

it even cleaner than it already is.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:53

Any closing thoughts you have for us, Adam?

Adam Leishman: 00:22:55

Yeah, and on that point, I mean, zero emission is mostly about

Adam Leishman: 00:22:59

carbon, but actually, you can have a lot of electric, cars and they're still,

Adam Leishman: 00:23:03

off gassing and there's still NOX and there's still rubber, toxins going

Adam Leishman: 00:23:07

into the air with the, we're breathing.

Adam Leishman: 00:23:09

So yeah, I absolutely echo what you just said, if you want to be healthier, we've

Adam Leishman: 00:23:13

got to stop building roads and cars, and we've got to design cities for people, and

Adam Leishman: 00:23:18

make them more human and community based.

Adam Leishman: 00:23:21

And, you know, having lived in Australia, where we have very

Adam Leishman: 00:23:24

similar cities, style wise, to the U.

Adam Leishman: 00:23:27

S., And then living in places like London and Hong Kong, where you can

Adam Leishman: 00:23:31

have that more dense development around transport nodes, and you can create

Adam Leishman: 00:23:36

community, you can create all the things you need for lifestyle, and actually,

Adam Leishman: 00:23:41

you know, having personally changed my lifestyle to be in that environment,

Adam Leishman: 00:23:45

I think It's much more fulfilling.

Adam Leishman: 00:23:47

it's much more, a lifestyle that is not lonely, let's say, whereas

Adam Leishman: 00:23:51

often living, you know, driving a car from house to work, house to

Adam Leishman: 00:23:55

work, house to shop, can be lonely.

Adam Leishman: 00:23:57

it's not good for health.

Adam Leishman: 00:23:58

so I just think we have so much to offer and we need to be bold in saying that.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:02

Wow.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:03

what a great commentary on the role, the value as a transit evangelist.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:06

I say a hearty hip hooray to what you just said.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:10

So, Adam Leishman, thank you so much for the work you're doing in Hong Kong

Paul Comfort: 00:24:14

and that you have done around the world.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:16

thanks again for being our guest today.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:17

we look forward to seeing the great things that you're going to continue to do there

Paul Comfort: 00:24:20

in Hong Kong and through your companies and your holdings around the world.

Adam Leishman: 00:24:23

Thanks very much, Paul.

Adam Leishman: 00:24:24

thanks for having the time to interview me today.

Tris Hussey: 00:24:31

Hi, this is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Tris Hussey: 00:24:35

Thanks for listening to this week's episode with our guest Adam.

Tris Hussey: 00:24:38

Leishman.

Tris Hussey: 00:24:39

Now coming up next week on the show, we have something

Tris Hussey: 00:24:41

actually very special for you.

Tris Hussey: 00:24:43

Paul recently appeared on the podcast, Lunch with Leon to talk about his

Tris Hussey: 00:24:47

latest book, the new future of public transportation with one of the

Tris Hussey: 00:24:50

contributors, Simon Reed so tune in on July 3rd for this special feed drop.

Tris Hussey: 00:24:57

And watch the show notes on that episode.

Tris Hussey: 00:24:59

So you can have Lunch with Leon too.

Tris Hussey: 00:25:02

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