Special Episode: Lunch with Leon featuring Paul Comfort and Simon Reed

Tris Hussey: 00:00:05

Welcome to Transit Unplugged.

Tris Hussey: 00:00:06

Hi, this is Tris Hussey, editor of Transit Unplugged and welcome to a special

Tris Hussey: 00:00:10

summer holiday edition of the show.

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This is a feed drop from Paul's recent appearance on the Lunch with

Tris Hussey: 00:00:16

Leon podcast with Leon Daniels.

Tris Hussey: 00:00:18

In this episode, Leon talks with Paul about his latest book, the

Tris Hussey: 00:00:21

New Future of Transportation, and also on the show is Simon Reed, one

Tris Hussey: 00:00:25

of the contributors to the book.

Tris Hussey: 00:00:26

This is a great episode.

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We hope you enjoy it.

Tris Hussey: 00:00:29

And make sure you check in the show notes for a link to Leon's

Tris Hussey: 00:00:31

podcast so you can subscribe.

Tris Hussey: 00:00:33

And now onto the interview.

Paul Comfort: 00:00:40

Hello,

Leon Daniels: 00:01:01

and welcome to another exciting edition of Lunch with Leon.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:05

This time I'm joined by two of my greatest friends, and it's a great privilege

Leon Daniels: 00:01:11

to have you here on this podcast.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:14

I am with the United States greatest evangelist for public transport.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:19

In fact, United States is a bit of a restriction because

Leon Daniels: 00:01:22

he's a global evangelist for public transport, Paul Comfort.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:26

Who you will know him because of course he runs a tremendous

Leon Daniels: 00:01:29

podcast called Transit Unplugged.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:33

And he too is joined by one of his friends and my friend Simon Reid, who

Leon Daniels: 00:01:37

is a transport data consultant who used to work with me in transport for London.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:44

Paul has recently written a book.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:47

Simon has written one of the chapters.

Leon Daniels: 00:01:48

So I started off by asking, Paul, apparently you've got a new book.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:53

Yes, thank you Leon.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:54

Uh, great to be with you on Lunch with Leon and my good friend, uh, Simon Reid.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:59

Today we are talking about that new book and it is called The New

Paul Comfort: 00:02:03

Future of Public Transportation.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:04

Leon, it's basically like, you know, a few years ago, just before the

Paul Comfort: 00:02:07

pandemic, I released another book called The Future of Public Transportation.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:11

And so this is an updated version for kind of the post pandemic world.

Leon Daniels: 00:02:14

So, this is not just a book.

Leon Daniels: 00:02:16

This is 327 pages, plus the preamble, plus several pages of

Leon Daniels: 00:02:22

acronyms, several testimonials.

Leon Daniels: 00:02:24

And 30 chapters.

Leon Daniels: 00:02:26

Tell us how you got 30 chapters written.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:29

Excellent point.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:29

I spent 30 years in the public transportation industry, as you

Paul Comfort: 00:02:32

probably know, and wound up as CEO of the MTA, the Maryland Transit

Paul Comfort: 00:02:36

Administration, which oversaw Baltimore City's transit system, plus funded

Paul Comfort: 00:02:40

and helped oversee about 24 smaller systems in the suburbs around Maryland.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:45

And then after I retired, I went to work for this company, Trapeze,

Paul Comfort: 00:02:47

which is now Modaxo, the parent company, and I started a podcast.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:51

called Transit Unplugged and now a TV show.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:53

And on that podcast, I got to interview all kinds of amazing people like

Paul Comfort: 00:02:56

Simon and like all these other CEOs and executives of transit agencies.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:01

And so this, Leon, is my sixth book in six years.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:05

And I've decided that I, you know, I hear from so many great people.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:09

All through the year on the podcast and the TV show and my visits, I've got to

Paul Comfort: 00:03:13

give them another venue for a longer form discussion in writing of the hot topics

Paul Comfort: 00:03:18

that are happening in public transit.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:19

I am a transit evangelist.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:21

So when SAE, the Society of Automotive Engineers, when their publisher

Paul Comfort: 00:03:24

contacted me about nine months ago and said, Paul, we loved your first book.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:28

We'd like to publish kind of a revised new version of that.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:32

I immediately jumped on it because so much has happened, Liana and Simon,

Paul Comfort: 00:03:35

as you know, since the pandemic.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:37

I mean, really.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:38

It was the gut punch, I call it, to our industry that caused everybody to

Paul Comfort: 00:03:43

wince, and then recover, and recalibrate.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:46

And so that's what the book is about.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:48

It's 30 chapters from 30 different leaders around the world, some of whom have been

Paul Comfort: 00:03:52

on my show, some of whom haven't, just people I know that are Top notch experts

Paul Comfort: 00:03:55

in this field, and there's so much happening right now, from big data that

Paul Comfort: 00:03:59

Simon talks about, to cybersecurity, to AI, to my chapter on the new leadership

Paul Comfort: 00:04:04

skills that are required now, um, there's so much different, I mean, uh, Leon,

Paul Comfort: 00:04:09

just to like dip in for just a second, um, you know, I start out my chapter

Paul Comfort: 00:04:14

on people, because I'm a people person, uh, on leadership and say the number one

Paul Comfort: 00:04:18

thing that needs to be at the heart of everything we do in our industry, we need

Paul Comfort: 00:04:21

to reset ourselves uh, to make sure that it's compassion, that it's compassion for

Paul Comfort: 00:04:26

others that motivates us for what we do.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:29

And then I think, you know, when we begin with that in mind, like the seven habits

Paul Comfort: 00:04:32

of highly effective people taught us with Stephen Covey, when we have that at the

Paul Comfort: 00:04:36

core of what we're doing, it informs, motivates, and directs everything.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:40

And we'll end up in the right place if we keep the passengers

Paul Comfort: 00:04:43

first, our compassion for them.

Leon Daniels: 00:04:45

Now that's really interesting.

Leon Daniels: 00:04:46

I found the book a fabulous read.

Leon Daniels: 00:04:49

Every transport professional should have one because in Britain we have

Leon Daniels: 00:04:52

a thing called the highway code.

Leon Daniels: 00:04:53

You know, if you drive a vehicle you've got to have a copy of the highway code.

Leon Daniels: 00:04:57

If you don't have a copy of that it's difficult to learn the rules of the road.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:00

So it's the same with your book.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:01

You can't be in the public transportation business without a copy of your book

Leon Daniels: 00:05:05

and I loved all sorts of bits of it.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:06

As I'm on my travels and you're on your travels I'm always quoting you and I'm

Leon Daniels: 00:05:10

also quoting you quoting other people.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:13

So my friend and your friend Jeremy App.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:15

Famously said about the pandemic, that at least, at least in the recovery, doesn't

Leon Daniels: 00:05:19

have the peak of the peak of the peak.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:20

Yes, I love that.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:22

So I say that, you say that, I quote you saying it, I quote him saying it.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:25

I think this is very important that we keep this, uh, keep this message going.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:30

Uh, look, let's bring in Simon.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:31

Simon, you and I worked together, of course, for many years, and, uh, you're

Leon Daniels: 00:05:35

now on the outside looking in like I am, which is a more comfortable place to be

Leon Daniels: 00:05:38

than being on the inside being looked at.

Leon Daniels: 00:05:40

Tell us what's going on in your world and in your chapter, Simon.

Simon Reed: 00:05:43

Uh, hi, uh, Paolo Leon, good to speak to you.

Simon Reed: 00:05:46

It was interesting that Paul then referred to Stephen Covey, which

Simon Reed: 00:05:48

is a common management tool.

Simon Reed: 00:05:50

And I think, uh, I didn't realize, Paul, you and I both had the same set

Simon Reed: 00:05:53

of background materials into our lives.

Simon Reed: 00:05:55

My chapters lead a section on technology and the technology use that

Simon Reed: 00:05:59

has happened from that, uh, stomach punch that Paul was describing.

Simon Reed: 00:06:03

Uh, and I think the, the The big change that has happened now, and everybody

Simon Reed: 00:06:06

will tell you this from a technology perspective, is that data is the new oil.

Simon Reed: 00:06:10

I mean, that's been said for a long, long time, but now it is absolutely the case.

Simon Reed: 00:06:16

In many authorities, we're looking to better manage things, to make

Simon Reed: 00:06:19

them better, make them improved, and performance management, etc.

Simon Reed: 00:06:23

Data is absolutely where it's at across the piece.

Simon Reed: 00:06:26

And I don't just mean for the internal systems, it's out for the customers.

Simon Reed: 00:06:30

And there is a new model Developing, where the operator has got all the

Simon Reed: 00:06:35

equipment that runs the service.

Simon Reed: 00:06:37

There is like a back office or a middle layer where people are interested in

Simon Reed: 00:06:42

running things the best efficiency, but it's interesting in Europe

Simon Reed: 00:06:45

and certainly in the UK and, uh.

Simon Reed: 00:06:48

Right across Europe now of how they want to use the data to both provide

Simon Reed: 00:06:54

metrics for the way that government works and provide information

Simon Reed: 00:06:58

across borders and across regions.

Simon Reed: 00:07:01

So the whole data paradigm has changed completely in

Simon Reed: 00:07:04

the last three or four years.

Simon Reed: 00:07:06

But technology, I think, is coming with two boots to it now.

Simon Reed: 00:07:09

It's also coming that technology is supposed to be this wonderful thing.

Simon Reed: 00:07:13

I think customers, our customers, want technology to disappear and

Simon Reed: 00:07:17

just let them get on with their life.

Simon Reed: 00:07:19

How many times now is technology seen as getting in the way?

Simon Reed: 00:07:22

You have to have our app to get the best service.

Simon Reed: 00:07:25

You have to have our this to do something.

Simon Reed: 00:07:29

I'm amazed that we're still sitting here talking about that in 2024.

Simon Reed: 00:07:33

Just really should be wiped off the, the, um, the landscape as far as I'm concerned.

Leon Daniels: 00:07:37

Simon, you know I have a particular hobby horse and

Leon Daniels: 00:07:40

I'm going to raise it now because I've got you and Paul on this call.

Leon Daniels: 00:07:43

One of the things I think is a complete disgrace is that there

Leon Daniels: 00:07:47

are journey planner apps provided.

Leon Daniels: 00:07:50

by third party providers and provided by transit organizations themselves, where

Leon Daniels: 00:07:55

your journey is optimized, all right, but it's not optimized for you, it's

Leon Daniels: 00:07:58

optimized for the commission rates that they get from the third party providers.

Simon Reed: 00:08:02

Absolutely.

Leon Daniels: 00:08:03

And there are cases here in the UK, and I've named and

Leon Daniels: 00:08:06

shamed the operators concerned, where actually what happens, if you try and

Leon Daniels: 00:08:11

force it to go the way you, you want to go, it'll take the train away.

Leon Daniels: 00:08:15

So it doesn't exist for it.

Leon Daniels: 00:08:16

And I think it's time that was outlawed in consumer protection terms.

Leon Daniels: 00:08:21

If you've got a journey planner, it needs to be optimized for the customer,

Leon Daniels: 00:08:24

not for the commissions of the vendor.

Simon Reed: 00:08:27

And that's the thing, certainly in Central

Simon Reed: 00:08:29

Europe, that's now a big drive.

Simon Reed: 00:08:31

The delegated authority, MMITS rules that have come out is encouraging central

Simon Reed: 00:08:38

governments to get together and provide a data platform where all that data is

Simon Reed: 00:08:42

common, but it is about who owns that relationship with the customer, Leon.

Simon Reed: 00:08:46

If you're most happy dealing with, let's use one of the.

Simon Reed: 00:08:50

Most common ones, if you're most happy dealing with Google, then

Simon Reed: 00:08:53

as a provider of of data, you have to give it to that provider.

Simon Reed: 00:08:57

But it's how that data is then used and who gets the benefit.

Simon Reed: 00:09:01

And it really comes down to who owns the relationship with your customer

Simon Reed: 00:09:05

now, rather than the technology platforms which it used to be.

Simon Reed: 00:09:09

And

Leon Daniels: 00:09:09

I think we have one other thing too, which is I've been

Leon Daniels: 00:09:12

involved recently in the argument with the owner of some vehicles about whose

Leon Daniels: 00:09:16

data those vehicles are generating belongs to because the manufacturer

Leon Daniels: 00:09:21

says that's our data and the operator says, hang on, I bought this vehicle.

Leon Daniels: 00:09:25

It's my driver, it's my energy source, and they're my customers,

Leon Daniels: 00:09:29

therefore it's my data.

Simon Reed: 00:09:31

The European directive has outlawed that and says, no, it's,

Simon Reed: 00:09:36

it's to do with the public realm.

Simon Reed: 00:09:38

It actually specifies it in there, and I think that that trend will grow.

Leon Daniels: 00:09:42

Indeed.

Leon Daniels: 00:09:43

So, Paul, you won't be surprised to know that I'm more familiar with

Leon Daniels: 00:09:45

the early chapters of this book than the later chapters of the book,

Leon Daniels: 00:09:48

because I'm reading it in sequence.

Leon Daniels: 00:09:50

I loved Karen Philbrick and what she talked about with the labor shortages, and

Leon Daniels: 00:09:57

we also learned, did we not, about cyber security and all sorts of stuff like that.

Leon Daniels: 00:10:02

So, in the US, how is

Paul Comfort: 00:10:04

the labor situation?

Paul Comfort: 00:10:05

It's gotten some better, thankfully.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:06

It's just weird, Leon.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:07

It's like, after the pandemic, when there was so much money going out to

Paul Comfort: 00:10:11

people, whether it was through enhanced unemployment benefits, whether it was

Paul Comfort: 00:10:15

through, there's a lot of increased social security benefits going out now in

Paul Comfort: 00:10:19

America, Uh, to people with disabilities, as well as, uh, regular people who have

Paul Comfort: 00:10:23

hit the age, and a lot of other people have gotten into the gig economy, where

Paul Comfort: 00:10:27

they're doing part time work, uh, on the side, or maybe as their main work, and

Paul Comfort: 00:10:32

so, after the pandemic, so many of our, um, skilled laborers, when it comes to

Paul Comfort: 00:10:37

maintenance shops, retired, and so many of our drivers dropped out of the labor

Paul Comfort: 00:10:41

force, it was difficult to get back, basically, to where we needed to be.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:44

As a matter of fact, some places, like in Denver, Even had to postpone

Paul Comfort: 00:10:48

changes to their bus route systems because they couldn't get enough

Paul Comfort: 00:10:51

drivers or operators to do it.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:52

But that seems to be waning some now.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:54

There's been a major increase in the base wage for bus drivers across America.

Paul Comfort: 00:10:59

I haven't done an analysis of it, but I would say in most places I've talked

Paul Comfort: 00:11:03

to, Wages have gone up sometimes 5 an hour on average as a starting wage,

Paul Comfort: 00:11:07

and so significant increases to more living wages, which I'm not opposed to.

Paul Comfort: 00:11:12

I mean, I think the work that people do, especially in my mind, paratransit

Paul Comfort: 00:11:16

drivers, people that work with people with disabilities, they have

Paul Comfort: 00:11:19

been severely underpaid for years.

Paul Comfort: 00:11:21

And when their work is very challenging, uh, when they're in

Paul Comfort: 00:11:24

direct, you know, hand to hand working with people with disabilities.

Paul Comfort: 00:11:28

So, it's gotten some better though, thankfully.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:30

Yeah, it's interesting you should say that because here

Leon Daniels: 00:11:33

we blame the labor shortage in transportation on COVID and Brexit.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:37

Well, you didn't have Brexit.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:39

So the situation here, of course, is that the people who were remainers

Leon Daniels: 00:11:42

blame Brexit and the people who are Brexiteers blame COVID.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:45

Okay.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:47

But of course, the way I see it, we're always looking at the wrong problem here.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:51

Just picking up on your point about a decent wage.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:54

There aren't many jobs in the world.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:56

And driving a bus is one of them.

Leon Daniels: 00:11:58

Where you're going to be working shifts.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:00

Where you're going to be a lone worker.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:02

You're going to be on your own.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:04

You're dealing with the public.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:06

You're dealing with other road users.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:08

You get all of the medical and health issues that comes with basically

Leon Daniels: 00:12:12

sitting down for eight hours.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:14

10 hours a day, maybe not eating properly, not hydrating properly.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:18

You get a risk of being punched on the nose or worse.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:21

And you're going to be working at the hours that most people want to be resting

Leon Daniels: 00:12:26

because that's when they're traveling.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:28

And compared with, for example, the driver of a train who can do his entire shift

Leon Daniels: 00:12:34

without meeting a member of the public and without having to deal with any other

Leon Daniels: 00:12:39

traffic apart from the signals and so on.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:42

That means for me, bus drivers, a very, very tough job.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:44

underpaid.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:46

And the problem is not about the pay, really.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:49

The problem is that the passenger, so I'm just quoting here in London,

Leon Daniels: 00:12:52

the passenger only wants to pay 1.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:53

75.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:54

So I put forward, I think, a really radical proposal.

Leon Daniels: 00:12:58

I put forward that the single fare for the London bus ride should be the

Leon Daniels: 00:13:02

same as a medium latte in Starbucks.

Leon Daniels: 00:13:05

Because if you're going to pay 3.

Leon Daniels: 00:13:05

75, For a paper cup with some hot water and some coffee in it, you

Leon Daniels: 00:13:11

sure as hell are going to pay 3.

Leon Daniels: 00:13:13

50, 3.

Leon Daniels: 00:13:14

75 for a bus ride, which is providing you with a skilled driver, a

Leon Daniels: 00:13:19

frequent service, half a million pounds worth of equipment and so on.

Leon Daniels: 00:13:22

So the disconnect for me is actually there's not enough income

Leon Daniels: 00:13:25

into the system rather than the cost of providing the labour.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:28

Yeah, I think a lot of people would agree with that.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:30

There was a movement coming out of COVID, uh, here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:33

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:34

to go to zero fares, uh, and places like Kansas City led that effort.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:38

That has pretty much petered out now that the federal subsidies of public

Paul Comfort: 00:13:42

transit agencies have dried up.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:44

You know, there were three big tranches of funds coming out of the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:47

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:47

federal government.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:48

Unprecedented, uh, but it's subsidized.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:51

Public transit across America on their operating dollars, not the capital.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:55

They've always had capital money, but that's all dried up now.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:58

There's no more coming.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:58

And so many transit agencies are actually looking at just what you

Paul Comfort: 00:14:01

said, Leon, not going zero fare, but instead actually raising fares.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:04

There's two chapters in the book that actually deal with this.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:07

Noah Berger, my friend outside of Boston, runs a system called MEVA, and they went

Paul Comfort: 00:14:12

zero fare and they've decided to stay zero fare and it's working for them.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:16

Rich Samson, the head of the Southwest Transit Association, wrote

Paul Comfort: 00:14:19

a chapter on the future of faring.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:21

And he's very strong in saying that, hey, we, this is an investment in

Paul Comfort: 00:14:25

service and we need to, you know, charge and, and, uh, and enforce the fares.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:30

You know, in Washington, D.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:31

C., Leon, last year, the CEO of the transit system said they had lost

Paul Comfort: 00:14:34

40 million to people evading fares.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:38

And so they've put up new gates that people can't jump over as well.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:41

They've added new fare enforcement officers.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:43

This is a trend.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:44

I actually put up posts on LinkedIn pretty much every week

Paul Comfort: 00:14:47

now and say, uh, it's a new day.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:50

And what I mean by that is I then share a post from some major city that

Paul Comfort: 00:14:54

is now doubling down on enforcement.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:57

Uh, because two years ago that wasn't the case.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:59

It was the other direction.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:00

Now the pendulum has swung and people are like, no.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:03

We're going to need more police officers, more fare enforcement

Paul Comfort: 00:15:05

officers, we've got to reduce crime.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:07

Some of the societal problems, such as people that don't have

Paul Comfort: 00:15:10

homes, where they're congregating in our stations or on our vehicles.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:14

Transit leaders are trying to deal with those.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:15

As a matter of fact, I just was talking with a California system on Friday.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:20

We're going to go visit later this year in Sacramento.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:22

And they were talking about what they're doing now with that.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:24

So, it's really changed.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:26

The dynamic has changed here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:27

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:28

And the focus is on the things that we talk about in this book.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:31

That's exciting.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:32

Well, this will make sense to Simon.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:33

I did a shift on route 148 here in London the other week.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:36

Not a single person south of the Elephant and Castle paid.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:39

They just walked up to me and said, I'm not paying, or I don't have a

Leon Daniels: 00:15:42

ticket, or just walked past entirely.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:44

In fact, so many people got on without paying.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:46

The people who had paid complained to me that I was letting them do it.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:50

So you are right.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:51

It's not just about the income from fares.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:53

It's making sure we collect all the fares that we're due to as well.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:56

And just on the.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:57

Technology.

Leon Daniels: 00:15:58

You talk about, uh, zero emission a lot in the book.

Leon Daniels: 00:16:01

And of course we have the, uh, battery electric versus hydrogen

Leon Daniels: 00:16:04

debate, which, uh, you explore.

Leon Daniels: 00:16:06

Simon will know, uh, we had the first hydrogen buses in London in 2004 and

Leon Daniels: 00:16:09

they told us that the technology was just about ready to be rolled out

Leon Daniels: 00:16:13

and it was just around the corner.

Leon Daniels: 00:16:14

Well, that was 20 years ago.

Leon Daniels: 00:16:15

And guess what?

Leon Daniels: 00:16:16

Uh, here we are now with a handful of hydrogen buses running in London.

Leon Daniels: 00:16:20

And once again, we're being assured that the technologies are there.

Leon Daniels: 00:16:23

And our main problem here in the UK is Not one atom of proper

Leon Daniels: 00:16:26

green hydrogen is really being delivered for any of these programs.

Leon Daniels: 00:16:30

So there's the perfecting the technology, but there's the hydrogen

Leon Daniels: 00:16:33

infrastructure supply as well,

Paul Comfort: 00:16:34

isn't there?

Leon Daniels: 00:16:35

That is

Paul Comfort: 00:16:35

an issue.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:36

Uh, here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:37

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:38

under the recent bipartisan infrastructure act that came out of

Paul Comfort: 00:16:40

the federal government, uh, There's funding for and planning for seven

Paul Comfort: 00:16:44

hydrogen hubs in the United States.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:46

I recently did a podcast on that with the head of Stark Transit

Paul Comfort: 00:16:49

and he's in the book as well.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:50

He's written a chapter on this.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:51

So here's what's happening just in a nutshell.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:54

In the United States, we have the collapse of the OEM industry is what I call it.

Paul Comfort: 00:16:58

The original equipment manufacturers.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:00

A year ago, there were five bus manufacturers in the United States.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:03

Today there's effectively two, uh, one of them went bankrupt and is trying to get

Paul Comfort: 00:17:07

back on their feet, but that's a severe problem, dramatic problem, and we have

Paul Comfort: 00:17:11

a law called Buy America, which means you can't buy buses from China, Asia,

Paul Comfort: 00:17:16

Europe, uh, unless around 70 percent of them are manufactured here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:19

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:20

And so, then you tag on to that the problem of shifting to alternate

Paul Comfort: 00:17:25

fuels, and it's a crisis in America.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:27

People have submitted a request to the Federal Transit Administration,

Paul Comfort: 00:17:31

25 states have their associations, requesting what they call a Buy America

Paul Comfort: 00:17:35

Waiver, saying, Hey, we'd like to bring a Turkish bus company over here that

Paul Comfort: 00:17:38

does mid sized vehicles to allow some battery electric buses to come over, and

Paul Comfort: 00:17:43

they'll eventually build a factory here.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:44

And there's lots of, There's a lot of movement in the federal government

Paul Comfort: 00:17:47

about ways to prop up the bus industry.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:49

There was a recent White House summit a couple months ago where they came out

Paul Comfort: 00:17:52

with new, um, basically incentives that transit agencies should allow public

Paul Comfort: 00:17:58

bus manufacturers to shift their price during the contract because costs have

Paul Comfort: 00:18:02

gone up so much from inflation, and they should also do, uh, payments up front

Paul Comfort: 00:18:06

and payments during the time while the bus is being manufactured and not wait to

Paul Comfort: 00:18:11

the end to make the bus manufacturer pay.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:13

carry that weight.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:14

Then you've got the whole hydrogen debate.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:16

One of the, uh, one of the authors in the book, Doran Barnes, who has the largest

Paul Comfort: 00:18:19

hydrogen fleet in America, who oversees Foothills Transit, told me last year,

Paul Comfort: 00:18:23

I don't think he'd mind saying this, they went into battery electric buses

Paul Comfort: 00:18:26

in a real big way, Leon, in California.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:29

There's rules about when they have to go all zero emission.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:32

And then last summer, they got a call from somebody in the government that said,

Paul Comfort: 00:18:35

hey, can you not run your buses today?

Paul Comfort: 00:18:37

There's not enough fuel.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:38

Electricity on the grid to power your buses and he was like what in the

Paul Comfort: 00:18:43

world we did this because you all wanted us to and that was his kind

Paul Comfort: 00:18:46

of inflection point where he decided we're going all in on hydrogen.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:49

We can't be subject to the whims of a grid which is unstable in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:53

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:53

as it is in many places.

Paul Comfort: 00:18:55

So there's a lot of movement toward moving toward hydrogen

Paul Comfort: 00:18:58

but as you said Leon it's not.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:00

Quite there when it comes to the supply side, when it comes to

Paul Comfort: 00:19:04

even the cost of fuel itself, and the vehicle is a lot higher than

Paul Comfort: 00:19:08

traditional diesel or battery electric.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:10

I'll close with this.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:11

The head of UITP often says public transit is clean, no matter how you look at it.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:17

Whether it's fuel with diesel, electric, CNG, compressed natural

Paul Comfort: 00:19:21

gas, it takes off hundreds of cars off the road for every bus or two.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:26

So.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:27

Don't mistake it.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:28

It's clean already.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:29

We're talking about improving something that's already pretty good.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:32

Indeed.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:32

Except in the binary

Leon Daniels: 00:19:33

world of politicians.

Leon Daniels: 00:19:35

Diesel bad, electric good.

Leon Daniels: 00:19:38

Yeah, that's right.

Leon Daniels: 00:19:38

And that's politics for you.

: 00:19:41

Lunch with Leon, in association with Passenger Transport Magazine.

: 00:19:45

Check out passengertransport.

: 00:19:47

co.

: 00:19:48

uk

Leon Daniels: 00:19:48

Simon, I just wanted to come back to some of

Leon Daniels: 00:19:51

the things that we did together.

Leon Daniels: 00:19:52

And I'm thinking in particular the value of real time information at

Leon Daniels: 00:19:55

stops, which was the early version of what we now have in our hands.

Leon Daniels: 00:19:58

I can think back, politicians wouldn't even let us get rid of the, um,

Leon Daniels: 00:20:02

text messaging facility for real time information at stops, even

Leon Daniels: 00:20:05

though everybody had a phone, even if they didn't have a smartphone.

Leon Daniels: 00:20:08

But of course, it's now taken for granted, isn't it?

Leon Daniels: 00:20:10

It's now just assumed to be there all the time.

Simon Reed: 00:20:12

Yeah, I think that that's the thing, isn't it?

Simon Reed: 00:20:14

Everybody expects it to be there and be omnipresent.

Simon Reed: 00:20:16

Particularly in times of crisis, they expect it to be better.

Simon Reed: 00:20:19

There have been times, I think, in the past where the passenger information was

Simon Reed: 00:20:23

better than the information we gave to our own staff, including our drivers.

Simon Reed: 00:20:27

I'm talking outside of London as well as And we had that

Leon Daniels: 00:20:29

for the Olympics, didn't we?

Leon Daniels: 00:20:30

We had situations

Simon Reed: 00:20:31

where the passengers had better information than the

Simon Reed: 00:20:33

staff did, if we weren't careful.

Simon Reed: 00:20:34

Indeed, indeed.

Simon Reed: 00:20:35

It comes back to this point about all authorities and operators are now

Simon Reed: 00:20:39

compelled to provide all of their data.

Simon Reed: 00:20:42

into open channels in the UK, and that is being very largely followed across

Simon Reed: 00:20:46

Europe, and Paul, I'm not so sure in North America whether it's the same.

Simon Reed: 00:20:49

So, the legislations in place came in the Bus Services Act, BODs and various

Simon Reed: 00:20:54

other things in the UK to actually enable this, to put a common data platform in

Simon Reed: 00:20:58

place that can basically provide the information that's required to everybody.

Simon Reed: 00:21:03

Um, doesn't matter what The technology is that they wish to consume it.

Simon Reed: 00:21:07

Um, and I think, you know, it has, it's got to be omnipresent, but

Simon Reed: 00:21:10

there was a quote that I put up the other day that says that, you know,

Simon Reed: 00:21:13

public transport in itself doesn't really make people's lives better.

Simon Reed: 00:21:17

Their lives are what their lives are.

Simon Reed: 00:21:19

But when you get that information wrong, Leon, that can absolutely

Simon Reed: 00:21:23

wreck people's days, people's experience, their appointments, their

Simon Reed: 00:21:27

relationships and everything else.

Simon Reed: 00:21:29

So, Omnipresent information is lovely, but it has got to be 100 percent

Simon Reed: 00:21:33

accurate now and far more accurate than perhaps it was five, six years ago.

Simon Reed: 00:21:37

I think we've got to raise the bar and because the public

Simon Reed: 00:21:39

expectation, it's all instant.

Simon Reed: 00:21:42

I've seen it on CSI.

Simon Reed: 00:21:43

I know how it works.

Simon Reed: 00:21:46

Indeed.

Leon Daniels: 00:21:47

Indeed.

Leon Daniels: 00:21:47

Paul, we can only just tiptoe through your book because as I said, it's,

Leon Daniels: 00:21:51

it's a, it's a very big book and it talks about a lot of things.

Leon Daniels: 00:21:54

I don't want to miss the chapter on what you call paratransit, which is

Leon Daniels: 00:21:58

not a word we use here in the UK, but it's effectively services for people

Leon Daniels: 00:22:01

who are unable to use regular public transportation and provides us sort

Leon Daniels: 00:22:06

of door to door service in a way that public transportation doesn't.

Leon Daniels: 00:22:10

And in my time, there's a reference here in the book about why this

Leon Daniels: 00:22:13

isn't just done with taxis.

Leon Daniels: 00:22:15

But actually, the paratransit that I'm used to, uh, what we had Simon as a dialer

Leon Daniels: 00:22:20

ride in London, is proper door to door.

Leon Daniels: 00:22:22

The driver meets you at the door and locks the door for you and helps you along the

Leon Daniels: 00:22:27

path with your basket for your shopping and helps you on the bus, straps you in,

Leon Daniels: 00:22:31

and when you return, puts you home again.

Leon Daniels: 00:22:33

So that's, that's not, that's not curb to curb, that really is true door to door.

Leon Daniels: 00:22:37

But am I right in thinking, Paul, you have something in the U.

Leon Daniels: 00:22:40

S.

Leon Daniels: 00:22:40

that we don't have here, like paratransit goes where, wherever there's regular

Leon Daniels: 00:22:46

public transportation, paratransit has to go there, and you don't have, you don't

Leon Daniels: 00:22:51

have one without the other, so I should just explain, situation here in the UK

Leon Daniels: 00:22:54

is, we don't have them coupled together like that at all, so what we don't have

Leon Daniels: 00:22:58

is a situation where, for example, if the regular public transport ceases, so what

Leon Daniels: 00:23:00

we don't have is a situation where, for example, if the regular public transport

Leon Daniels: 00:23:02

ceases, The paratransit ceases with it.

Leon Daniels: 00:23:04

If anything, our version of paratransit is even even more

Paul Comfort: 00:23:08

important.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:09

Is that right with you?

Paul Comfort: 00:23:10

Good, uh, good call out, Leon.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:12

So, yes, uh, there is something different in the United States than

Paul Comfort: 00:23:15

in Canada or in the UK or in other countries, and it's called the

Paul Comfort: 00:23:19

Americans with Disabilities Act.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:21

It's a law that was passed over 30 years ago, uh, shortly after I got

Paul Comfort: 00:23:25

into public transportation that requires, it calls it a civil right.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:29

for people with disabilities to have accessible transportation comparable to

Paul Comfort: 00:23:34

fixed route anywhere where there is a fixed bus route or rail route within three

Paul Comfort: 00:23:38

quarters of a mile if they live on either side of the route and so public transit

Paul Comfort: 00:23:43

agencies have started up A big part of their agency is to serve those people.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:48

I actually worked for five years in Washington, D.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:50

C.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:51

Um, as the day to day manager of that service for our capital region.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:55

Uh, we had about eight to ten thousand people a day that would ride, uh,

Paul Comfort: 00:24:00

that had some type of disability.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:02

We'd send a wheelchair lift equipped van or a taxi cab.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:05

or now an Uber or Lyft or other, other, to pick them up.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:09

It's, it's, uh, in many, the law requires curb to curb, but many cities now have

Paul Comfort: 00:24:12

gone door to door and they'll take you and, and bring you out to the vehicle

Paul Comfort: 00:24:16

and take you in, you know, right up to the door of the next place you're going.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:19

It's a very important service.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:21

I, I feel like, yeah.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:22

It's critical that transit agencies, um, make it a priority, and most of them have.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:28

Let me give you a quick example.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:29

In Baltimore, where I was a CEO, I had an 800 million operating budget a year.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:33

We had around 320, 000 passengers a day.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:37

Only 8, 000, that were people with disabilities.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:41

But we spent 100 million a year on that budget.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:44

The costs for those trips were, uh, tremendous.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:47

Uh, 100 million, so we were spending, uh, One eighth of our budget on one fortieth

Paul Comfort: 00:24:51

of our passengers and that is Treating, uh, the people with disabilities with

Paul Comfort: 00:24:56

the care they need, um, and making sure that, but the service has gotten very

Paul Comfort: 00:25:01

expensive in a lot of cities now, Leon, in America, it's crossed a hundred dollars a

Paul Comfort: 00:25:06

trip to take those people on their trips.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:08

And so, there's other companies that have come on the scene, um, I mentioned Uber

Paul Comfort: 00:25:14

and Lyft, there's others like SilverRide and Userv and others here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:18

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:18

that are dramatically dropping that cost by allowing them an Uber model where

Paul Comfort: 00:25:22

somebody would drive their own car.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:23

They've been trained, they've been drug tested and background checked in

Paul Comfort: 00:25:27

some of the cases in some companies.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:29

Others, they don't have that, and they pick them up.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:32

So yeah, paratransit is critical, important.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:35

People probably couldn't get around at all without our help, and so it's a

Paul Comfort: 00:25:38

big part of what we do here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:40

S.

Leon Daniels: 00:25:41

Indeed, indeed.

Leon Daniels: 00:25:42

Now the other one I was going to, which I loved reading about in the

Leon Daniels: 00:25:46

book, which is about the future of high speed rail, because this is going

Leon Daniels: 00:25:49

to take a bit of a run up to this.

Leon Daniels: 00:25:51

I'm excited about the future of high speed rail in the US, but before I get

Leon Daniels: 00:25:54

there, I'm thinking about Los Angeles and the LA 2028 Olympics, and you already

Leon Daniels: 00:25:59

referenced the number of homeless people.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:02

The last time I did a train ride from downtown Los Angeles to Anaheim,

Leon Daniels: 00:26:07

there wasn't a car on the train that didn't have homeless people sleeping.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:11

In it, which was unbelievable, and in the transit stations

Leon Daniels: 00:26:15

and of course in the streets.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:16

And this is a big problem.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:17

I know you're working with the LA 28 people like I am, and, uh, and the

Leon Daniels: 00:26:21

numbers of homeless people in Los Angeles is a problem for humanity,

Leon Daniels: 00:26:26

and it's certainly a problem for the, the Olympic Games, isn't it?

Paul Comfort: 00:26:29

There is a, there's a big effort obviously put on

Paul Comfort: 00:26:31

whenever the Olympics come to a city.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:33

Uh, I'm, I'm working, uh, with, uh, starting to work

Paul Comfort: 00:26:37

with the folks in Brisbane.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:38

My good friend, Samantha Abedira, who's in the book also, they have, they have

Paul Comfort: 00:26:41

some, uh, Olympic type things coming their way in a few years as well.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:44

We hope to go there in November.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:46

Then I'm going to see you there, actually, in that case.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:48

The big problem for Brisbane, of course, is unlike all the rest of us, they

Leon Daniels: 00:26:50

got 11 years instead of seven years.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:52

That's right, yeah, yeah.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:53

Because in the case of London, we got seven years, so we were

Leon Daniels: 00:26:55

pouring concrete on day two.

Leon Daniels: 00:26:57

Whereas in Brisbane, uh, they've known about this since 2021, and

Leon Daniels: 00:27:00

they're still working out which way is up, so Yeah, it helps to have a

Paul Comfort: 00:27:04

longer distance.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:05

The big thing that's happened here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:06

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:07

on high speed rail is the advent of a company called Brightline Trains.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:11

Yes.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:11

Brightline is privately funded, and, uh, you know, your old pal Andy Byford's

Paul Comfort: 00:27:16

over here with Amtrak, working to try to get them some high speed rail.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:19

Uh, but the private sector's already stepped up.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:21

They've got an amazing service.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:23

From Miami to Orlando and Florida and they've broken ground or

Paul Comfort: 00:27:26

cut the ribbon or something.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:27

The Las Vegas from From Vegas to la.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:29

Outside of la Yes.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:30

So, uh, you know, it'd be awesome if it could get done in time for the Olympics.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:34

Not sure it can, but I think that's the goal.

Leon Daniels: 00:27:36

So not only do I hope to see you in Brisbane, I hope you'll take me on

Leon Daniels: 00:27:39

the first LA to Las Vegas high speed rail.

Leon Daniels: 00:27:41

That sounds like a really good thing to do.

Leon Daniels: 00:27:43

And really high speed rail in the us.

Leon Daniels: 00:27:45

Proper high speeded rail in the US is is new.

Leon Daniels: 00:27:47

Because right, rail, rail is there, but not at the sort of speeds that

Leon Daniels: 00:27:51

we see in Japan and, uh That's right.

Leon Daniels: 00:27:53

No, we don't

Paul Comfort: 00:27:54

really have high speed rail in the US.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:55

When I was head of the Maryland commuter train system, we had the highest Speed

Paul Comfort: 00:28:00

trains in America, I was told, and they went, uh, I know you use kilometers,

Paul Comfort: 00:28:03

but in miles per hour, they're 132 miles per hour, but that's still 50

Paul Comfort: 00:28:07

miles less than true high speed rail, and so, uh, we're gonna get there.

Paul Comfort: 00:28:11

I think the one from L.

Paul Comfort: 00:28:12

A.

Paul Comfort: 00:28:12

to Vegas is scheduled to go 200 miles per hour or more.

Paul Comfort: 00:28:15

That'll be America's first true high speed rail.

Paul Comfort: 00:28:17

Now it's higher speed.

Paul Comfort: 00:28:19

But, um, As you mentioned, you know, you ride now trains, you're happy

Paul Comfort: 00:28:23

if you can get to 80 miles per hour for any long stretch of time, you

Paul Comfort: 00:28:27

know, they're trying to improve the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak is, etc,

Paul Comfort: 00:28:30

but yeah, we've got a long way to go.

Leon Daniels: 00:28:33

We're in our last few minutes, Simon and Paul,

Leon Daniels: 00:28:36

so let's play with this one.

Leon Daniels: 00:28:38

So we've got a general election coming up and you've got a

Leon Daniels: 00:28:41

presidential election coming up.

Leon Daniels: 00:28:43

I wonder, why don't we just fast forward to the end of our next government,

Leon Daniels: 00:28:47

which will be 2029, and the end of your, the end of the next presidency,

Leon Daniels: 00:28:51

which I think will also be 2029.

Leon Daniels: 00:28:53

So, what's transportation going to look like in 2029?

Leon Daniels: 00:28:57

Simon?

Simon Reed: 00:28:59

Oh, I've got hooked on that one, haven't I?

Simon Reed: 00:29:00

Will HS2 actually come all the way into London by 2020, 2029, or will

Simon Reed: 00:29:06

it still be at Old Oak, and there'll be lots and lots of arguments?

Simon Reed: 00:29:10

My fear is that it will only end in Old Oak Common and

Simon Reed: 00:29:13

we'll never get any further.

Simon Reed: 00:29:15

Um, I think some of the, we've lost a lot of vision in the

Simon Reed: 00:29:19

UK as to what good looks like.

Simon Reed: 00:29:22

Um, we start off with the idea of big infrastructure projects,

Simon Reed: 00:29:25

budgets get in the way, and these infrastructure projects get killed off.

Simon Reed: 00:29:29

Um, I don't know the complete rights and wrongs and otherwise of HS2 and

Simon Reed: 00:29:33

other such projects, but it is, it's, has repeated time and time again.

Simon Reed: 00:29:38

Once they've been built, we all love the services and they improve our lives

Simon Reed: 00:29:42

dramatically, but we don't have brave enough politicians who are actually going

Simon Reed: 00:29:46

to set a course and say, this is what we're going to do and see it through.

Simon Reed: 00:29:51

It tends to be something that is put onto the shelf and is used

Simon Reed: 00:29:55

as a political pawn thereafter.

Simon Reed: 00:29:57

Paul, please tell me it's different where you

Paul Comfort: 00:29:58

are.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:00

This is strictly my opinion here, what I'm going to say.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:02

I think that, uh, we're shifting away from how transit is funded in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:07

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:07

and one way or the other we'll move away from just the traditional gas

Paul Comfort: 00:30:10

tax and we'll move more to a road charging, uh, where you're charged

Paul Comfort: 00:30:14

by the mile that you drive the road.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:15

Depending on who's elected, it may go faster or slower.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:18

Uh, I think we'll also have more autonomous vehicles,

Paul Comfort: 00:30:21

more AI in transportation, regardless of what happens.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:24

There'll be more contracted out work.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:26

Right now, America is big in contracting out paratransit.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:29

Unlike London and in the UK where so much of your fixed route work

Paul Comfort: 00:30:33

is outsourced, I think that's going to happen more here in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:36

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:36

to bring in the expertise of private companies.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:39

Uh, I think also that depending on who's elected president, one of them will double

Paul Comfort: 00:30:43

down on Uh, oil, uh, it says Drill Baby Drill, and there'll be more diesel funded.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:48

There won't be any funding coming from the federal government

Paul Comfort: 00:30:51

or as much for zero emissions.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:53

The other is elected, there'll be more funding for zero emission, hydrogen,

Paul Comfort: 00:30:57

battery, electric, those kind of things.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:59

Uh, but I do see a bright future no matter who's elected when it comes to

Paul Comfort: 00:31:02

it because Public mobility is key to not only growing the economy of our

Paul Comfort: 00:31:07

country, but also just ease of access.

Paul Comfort: 00:31:09

And our cities are back being clogged up by congestion again.

Paul Comfort: 00:31:13

And so public transit is a solution.

Paul Comfort: 00:31:16

It's a silver bullet to use the old analogy to so many challenges

Paul Comfort: 00:31:20

that society faces that I can only see it growing in importance.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:24

You know, I feel so much better after talking to you two today.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:27

Finally, my day is uplifted by public transport evangelists at a

Leon Daniels: 00:31:32

time when there's terrible stuff going on in other parts of the

Leon Daniels: 00:31:34

world, but this is tremendous.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:36

So I've been talking to two of my great friends, Simon Reid, who wrote

Leon Daniels: 00:31:40

one of the chapters in this new book we're talking about, put together by

Leon Daniels: 00:31:44

my other great friend, I only have two, Paul Comfort, who is an expert.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:48

Another wonderful spokesman for the whole of public

Leon Daniels: 00:31:51

transportation across in the world.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:53

The book is The New Future of Public Transportation.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:56

You can get it at books.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:57

sae.

Leon Daniels: 00:31:59

org or wherever you get your books from, including online.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:03

It is a fabulous read and absolutely no public transport official,

Leon Daniels: 00:32:08

officer, or person in the organization should be without the book.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:11

It deserves reading all the way through.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:14

It's great for a long train journey because This is the world as it is

Leon Daniels: 00:32:18

in the world of public transportation with technology, with data, with

Leon Daniels: 00:32:22

energy, with the challenges we have with labor, and the post Covid world,

Leon Daniels: 00:32:27

which is a quite different world to the one that we've had before.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:30

I'm thrilled to have had you both on lunch with Leon today.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:34

Thanks very much indeed for joining us.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:36

Good luck with the book and good luck as we all find ourselves

Leon Daniels: 00:32:40

traveling to the future.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:41

around the place preaching about public transport.

Leon Daniels: 00:32:44

So Simon and Paul, thanks very much indeed for joining us.

Simon Reed: 00:32:47

Thank you, Leon.

Simon Reed: 00:32:48

See you again.

Simon Reed: 00:32:49

Bye bye.

Paul Comfort: 00:32:50

Thanks, Leon.

Paul Comfort: 00:32:51

Thanks, Simon.

Paul Comfort: 00:32:51

This was great.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:18

Thank you for listening to this special episode of Transit Unplugged.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:21

And thanks to Leon Daniels and the Lunch with Leon podcast for

Tris Hussey: 00:33:24

sharing his episode with us.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:27

Coming up next week on the show, Paul is talking with Ron Kilcoyne.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:30

Now he's a former CEO of several transit agencies, but now he's a

Tris Hussey: 00:33:35

researcher into transit itself.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:38

And he's going to talk about his research on how to increase ridership.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:42

And just what the levers are to pull to do that.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:46

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:49

At Modaxo, we're passionate about moving the world's people.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:52

And a transit unplugged.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:53

We're passionate about telling those stories.

Tris Hussey: 00:33:55

So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.