Episode 20

Can Hydrogen Hubs Push Hydrogen to the Forefront of Transportation Fuels?

Hydrogen is one of the hottest topics in transit right now, but hydrogen is facing a huge challenge to reduce its cost and increase its availability across North America (and the world). Paul sits down with Stark Area Regional Transit Authority (SARTA) CEO Kirt Conrad--who manages the largest fleet of hydrogen fuel cell buses outside California--and Ballard Power Systems Dir of Market Development and Public Affairs, Tim Sasseen to talk about hydrogen as a fuel, how hydrogen fuel cells work, and how the hydrogen hub project will break down barriers to adopting hydrogen as the zero-emissions fuel of choice.

If you're interested in learning more about hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cells, here is a playlist of Transit Unplugged episodes on the topic: https://transit-unplugged.captivate.fm/hydrogen-fuel-in-transit

We also have a blog post on the Transit Unplugged blog explaining how hydrogen fuel cells work: https://transitunplugged.com/transit-unplugged-transit-science-understanding-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

Some of the organizations mentioned in the show:

Coming up next week we have another feed swap! This time we have past guest Brandon Bartneck with Larry Burns, former VP at GM and leader in the autonomous vehicle space, talking about the future of autonomous vehicles from The Future of Mobility. In the meantime, check out Brandon's podcast page for more great episodes. https://brandonbartneck.com/futureofmobility/

If you have a question or comment, email us at info@transitunplugged.com.

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo and these fine folks:

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  • Julie Gates, executive producer
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00:00 Introduction to Hydrogen Fuel in Public Transportation

00:35 Insights from Experts: Kirt Conrad and Tim Sasseen

02:25 Understanding Different Types of Fuel

03:49 The Role of Hydrogen in Decarbonization

15:04 The Practicalities of Hydrogen Buses

21:57 Final Thoughts and Future Prospects

24:54 Coming up next week on Transit Unplugged

Transcript
Paul Comfort:

This is Transit Unplugged.

Paul Comfort:

I'm Paul Comfort, and this week we bring you an insight into hydrogen fuel.

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For public transportation as part of the recent infrastructure spending bills.

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There's been a big focus on what's called hydrogen hubs.

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These are 7 centers around the US where there is being spent a lot

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of money to create centers where.

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fuel, the hydrogen fuel can be brought in and produced and shipped out

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from around the country to lower the cost per kilogram of hydrogen fuel.

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And today we talked to two of the nation's top experts on the topic,

Paul Comfort:

and that is Kirt Conrad, who is CEO of Stark Area Regional Transit Authority.

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And Tim Sasseen who is Director of Market Development and Public

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Affairs in North America for Ballard, which makes the fuel cells.

Paul Comfort:

Kirt is a, is a favorite of mine on this hot topic.

Paul Comfort:

He's written a chapter in my upcoming book, The New Future of Public

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Transportation, as well as Doran Barnes has written a chapter on this topic.

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Kirt has been the CEO of Stark Area Regional Transit Authority in

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Canton, Ohio, the home of the NFL Football Hall of Fame, since 2009.

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SARTA operates 110 buses with 240 employees.

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They operate diesel, electric hybrids, biodiesel, and

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compressed natural gas buses.

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Also, they have 21 hydrogen fuel cell buses, which is the largest fleet in

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the country outside of California.

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And Kirt actually loans them around the country to trade shows, etc.

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I actually got to see one in person a couple years ago, at the Transportation

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Association of Maryland conference.

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even though he's funny and he, I think, could have a second career in stand up

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comedy, he really is a serious guy who's focused on this and a real good spokesman,

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for the hydrogen, fuel cell, bus council, and all the work being done across

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the country as people are looking at alternatives to move us to a decarbonized

Paul Comfort:

zero emission future for buses.

Paul Comfort:

This is a great, fun conversation that I know you're going to enjoy on

Paul Comfort:

today's episode of Transit Unplugged.

Paul Comfort:

Excited to have with me today, two of the leaders here in the United States

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in the hot, hot, almost explosive topic.

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Kirt said, I shouldn't say that of hydrogen fuel, but great to have you

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with us, Kirt Conrad, who is CEO of Stark Transit and Tim Sasseen who is,

Paul Comfort:

director of market development and public affairs for North America, for Ballard.

Paul Comfort:

As those who listen to the podcast regularly know, zero emission buses

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is one of the trending topics in our world of public transportation.

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I was in Tulsa last week with Scott Marr, the CEO there, and he's all

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in on CNG, compressed natural gas, because that's what they have a

Paul Comfort:

lot of it right there, just like they do that in Fort Worth, Texas.

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And so they showed me their entire, you know, setup and

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how they fuel the vehicles.

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So really there's four or five main types of fuel in the United States, right?

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There is for buses.

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There is diesel.

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And then now we have what's called clean diesel, which is a lot

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cleaner than the old versions of diesel, reducing particulates.

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then you've got compressed natural gas, then you've got like a vegetable

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oil gas that they're using in some places in Canada, modified fuel.

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Then you go to battery electric and then hydrogen, and I know there's

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probably some permutations as well, but those are the big ones.

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And battery electric has been at the forefront.

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But there was a lot of problems just this last month across Canada and

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colder climates where many of the CEOs and folks I was talking to said,

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Paul, our buses were hardly moving.

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It was so cold up here.

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I mean, we couldn't get much of a charge, et cetera.

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and those of you who listened to Eve Wiggins on the podcast just recently.

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From Mississauga, Canada, talked about, you know, the concerns that she

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has with battery electric buses, but there's a whole new fuel type, which

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has been around for ages, but it's really coming to the forefront of our

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industry now, Kirt, and that's hydrogen.

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Now, you're head of the, you're head of a big group that does this, just

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give us a little bit of background on hydrogen, and then I'm going to go into

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brand new federal funding in the U.

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S.

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for something called hydrogen hubs, which I want you to describe, but first,

Paul Comfort:

just give us a take on hydrogen fuel in general and what's going on with it.

Kirt Conrad:

So hydrogen, if you can imagine like gasoline, hydrogen is a

Kirt Conrad:

fuel carrier, or energy carrier, you can store energy, just like you put

Kirt Conrad:

gasoline in your car, you put hydrogen in a vehicle, and you're storing energy,

Kirt Conrad:

and then what happens is the hydrogen is converted through a fuel cell, and

Kirt Conrad:

hopefully that would be a Ballard fuel cell that you're using to make your, Tim's

Kirt Conrad:

with the Ballard, your, your fuel cells.

Kirt Conrad:

And that fuel cell through a chemical process actually converts

Kirt Conrad:

that power into electricity and it drives an electric drive motor.

Kirt Conrad:

So it's an electric vehicle, it's just powered by hydrogen.

Kirt Conrad:

So we have 21 vehicles here, we're the fourth largest in the country.

Kirt Conrad:

The large is outside of California.

Kirt Conrad:

We've been in operation about about 10 years and we got about

Kirt Conrad:

a million miles on our fleet.

Kirt Conrad:

We see that the, uptime performance is pretty well equivalent to

Kirt Conrad:

what we see in a diesel vehicle.

Kirt Conrad:

the nice thing about that, you can go 300 plus miles on a single refill,

Kirt Conrad:

and you can get that refill of hydrogen, down to about six minutes.

Kirt Conrad:

So it really is a drop in replacement equivalent for diesel.

Paul Comfort:

Thank you, Kirt.

Paul Comfort:

When I was up in Edmonton recently, we filmed an episode of Transit

Paul Comfort:

Unplugged TV up there and also a podcast with Eddie Robar, who is the

Paul Comfort:

Deputy City Manager and used to head up the Edmonton Transit Service.

Paul Comfort:

He showed us the back of an engine and walked us through how it works, the fuel

Paul Comfort:

cell, and I did a little clip of that, put it up on YouTube, and it got thousands

Paul Comfort:

and thousands of views around the world.

Paul Comfort:

Tim, that's what your company does, right?

Paul Comfort:

You all produce those fuel cells?

Paul Comfort:

Tell us about that and, you know, whatever you want to say about that.

Tim Sasseen:

Yeah, we started back in 1979, Jeffrey Ballard wanted

Tim Sasseen:

to replace the combustion engine.

Tim Sasseen:

We're working hard on it, but we've always been focused on heavy duty

Tim Sasseen:

about 32 years ago is when we put our first bus on the road, so transit's

Tim Sasseen:

always been square in our sights.

Tim Sasseen:

And really, that's all we do, is the hydrogen fuel cell.

Tim Sasseen:

the thing that converts hydrogen into electricity, just as if it were A

Tim Sasseen:

battery, we've been making and producing those in North America all this time,

Tim Sasseen:

up in Vancouver, Canada is where our R& D facilities are, but we've also

Tim Sasseen:

got a manufacturing facility in Bend, Oregon, and that's where the fuel cell

Tim Sasseen:

modules, buses in the United States, come from, from Ballard, and really

Tim Sasseen:

Buy America, as you mentioned, it has been really effective in coercing

Tim Sasseen:

and convincing Ballard to invest more and more in the United States.

Tim Sasseen:

That used to be just a little engineering office, but that we had acquired some

Tim Sasseen:

time back and slowly it's growing to take on more and more responsibility.

Tim Sasseen:

We're looking at bigger and bigger investments within the United States

Tim Sasseen:

to satisfy this market as it grows.

Tim Sasseen:

so we're fully bought into transit.

Tim Sasseen:

Transit has always been, there for us.

Tim Sasseen:

It's such an attractive market for introducing zero emission technology.

Tim Sasseen:

It's got all of the tough points of fleet management and fleet operations

Tim Sasseen:

that a big trucking fleet might have, but The economics of it value what's

Tim Sasseen:

provided to the customer and to the community much more so than a strictly

Tim Sasseen:

commercial venture and that's really helped us to grow together with transit

Tim Sasseen:

to make zero emissions ready and these drive trains really will adapt

Tim Sasseen:

quite well to these other, These other powertrains, these other chassis,

Paul Comfort:

boats, and everything else.

Paul Comfort:

Tell me how that works, Tim.

Paul Comfort:

So when I looked at the, of course, I've seen one of Kirt's buses.

Paul Comfort:

Kirt brought it down to TAM, Transportation Association of Maryland,

Paul Comfort:

a couple years ago, and when I first got to see a hydrogen bus, and by the way,

Paul Comfort:

Kirt, thank you for, I know you loan a lot of your fleet out around the country, so

Paul Comfort:

the people can kind of see it in person.

Paul Comfort:

But when I looked at it again up there in Edmonton at the CUTA

Paul Comfort:

conference, It reminded me of the old flux capacitor on the DeLorean,

Paul Comfort:

you know, from Back To The Future.

Paul Comfort:

There's this thing in the middle that turns this hydrogen fuel in these

Paul Comfort:

tanks that are on the roof of a bus.

Paul Comfort:

And then what happens then, Tim?

Paul Comfort:

Just walk us briefly through.

Tim Sasseen:

It's not too different from the engines that we're all familiar with,

Tim Sasseen:

but instead of burning that hydrogen and creating a high temperature and all

Tim Sasseen:

the particulate matter associated with it, instead of burning it, we react it.

Tim Sasseen:

So the fuel, it's a

Paul Comfort:

chemical reaction.

Paul Comfort:

Fuel cell.

Paul Comfort:

What's that?

Paul Comfort:

It's a chemical reaction.

Paul Comfort:

Is that the, is that a good way to say it?

Tim Sasseen:

Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

Tim Sasseen:

It's a good way to say it.

Tim Sasseen:

The hydrogen hits the membrane and it reacts with the membrane.

Tim Sasseen:

So the proton goes across, the electron goes into your

Tim Sasseen:

electrical circuit, electrically, it looks just like a battery.

Tim Sasseen:

right.

Tim Sasseen:

In fact, we put 'em in parallel with the batteries as if it

Tim Sasseen:

were another battery pack.

Tim Sasseen:

And that's the beauty of it is that it gives you that ability for an electric

Tim Sasseen:

traction drive and electric drives are fantastic for things like buses

Tim Sasseen:

because they've got high torque and all the benefits that we know about the

Tim Sasseen:

shortcoming is that as you leave those batteries, the performance starts to

Tim Sasseen:

fade, not so with the hydrogen fuel cells.

Tim Sasseen:

So We, keep going just as strong with a full tank as we do when you get

Tim Sasseen:

close to empty because constant output.

Tim Sasseen:

It's a nice feature of hydrogen fuel cells.

Tim Sasseen:

And the addition is that we make heat.

Tim Sasseen:

So, not only can we store more energy up on the roof, but, you know, you

Tim Sasseen:

talked about this when you were off in Edmonton, that, we also have waste

Tim Sasseen:

heat that we can use in these colder climates, and it's going to be a

Tim Sasseen:

really big deal as we move into some of these, colder transit agencies.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, so the only, Kirt, you mentioned this to me before, and

Paul Comfort:

you talk about it in the chapter that you wrote for my upcoming book, The

Paul Comfort:

New Future of Public Transportation.

Paul Comfort:

By the way, folks, if you want to Kind of read a really good description.

Paul Comfort:

Take a look at Kirt's chapter.

Paul Comfort:

It'll be available.

Paul Comfort:

ebook will be available in the middle of April and the paperback in June.

Paul Comfort:

but you describe it in great detail and with some humor,

Paul Comfort:

which I always like about you.

Paul Comfort:

But, the only thing that comes out is, is water out of your tailpipe, right?

Paul Comfort:

And heat inside the vehicle to warm the vehicle up.

Kirt Conrad:

Correct.

Kirt Conrad:

Correct.

Kirt Conrad:

The advantage of the fuel cell versus a battery is the, the electricity is,

Kirt Conrad:

is, is consumed and immediately used.

Kirt Conrad:

whereas a battery, you're storing it and you have to discharge it, and so the

Kirt Conrad:

cold temperatures like Edmonton, Canada, that, because of the physics of the way

Kirt Conrad:

batteries work, they don't discharge as efficiently, so you may lose 40, 50

Kirt Conrad:

percent of your capacity or your range because of the cold, whereas a fuel cell

Kirt Conrad:

immediately uses it and doesn't have that same degradation from the cold.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, and the, on our year end podcast this year at the

Paul Comfort:

end of 2023, I had Paul Skoutelas on.

Paul Comfort:

Paul is the, president and CEO of the American Public

Paul Comfort:

Transportation Association.

Paul Comfort:

And when we talked about the trends that are happening in the

Paul Comfort:

industry going into 2024, hydrogen fuel is one of those trends.

Paul Comfort:

Foothills Transit, Doran Barnes, has, has also, one of the leaders

Paul Comfort:

in the industry, has been a, a big proponent of hydrogen fuel.

Paul Comfort:

But there's been a problem, Kirt, and the problem is Where do you get your hydrogen?

Paul Comfort:

You know, do you have to have it shipped in?

Paul Comfort:

Do you make it?

Paul Comfort:

but there's something new happening and it's called Hydrogen Hubs.

Paul Comfort:

Tell us about that.

Kirt Conrad:

So yeah, this is a project that really came out

Kirt Conrad:

of the Biden Administration.

Kirt Conrad:

It's linked to, The Biden administration 50 billion earth shot for hydrogen,

Kirt Conrad:

which is trying to get the price of hydrogen down to $1 per kilogram.

Kirt Conrad:

if anybody's in California, you may have seen it as high as $35 a kilogram.

Kirt Conrad:

So really trying to get it down to, a cost per kilogram that, that.

Kirt Conrad:

It is equivalent or cheaper than gasoline, but really the hydrogen hubs is a concept

Kirt Conrad:

coming out that hydrogen can be used, just not in transportation, but it can

Kirt Conrad:

be used in producing steel, chemicals, fertilizer, concrete, it can be used to

Kirt Conrad:

store energy, it can be used as an energy carrier, you can actually use it it's put

Kirt Conrad:

in your gas lines to offset natural gas.

Kirt Conrad:

You can burn on your stove.

Kirt Conrad:

You can, you can use it to, to make electricity.

Kirt Conrad:

And so really it's the idea that hydrogen is the element that society

Kirt Conrad:

is going to use to decarbonize.

Kirt Conrad:

It is the main arrow in our quiver that we're going to use to decarbonize.

Kirt Conrad:

And so the Biden Administration had put, $10 billion in the infrastructure bill to,

Kirt Conrad:

to fund, hydrogen hubs across the country.

Kirt Conrad:

Originally, there was like 70 that were proposed and got it down to 7.

Kirt Conrad:

and basically the, the hubs are based in the East Coast, Midwest.

Kirt Conrad:

there's 1 that we're a part of in the Appalachian area.

Kirt Conrad:

there's one in Texas, the upper Midwest, and then in the

Kirt Conrad:

California are the seven hubs.

Kirt Conrad:

And so really what they're trying to do is match manufacturing with

Kirt Conrad:

consumers and then hopefully we'll be able to replicate that hub concept

Kirt Conrad:

around the rest of the country.

Paul Comfort:

That's interesting.

Paul Comfort:

So, Tim, what is a hub?

Paul Comfort:

and, and, you know, what is a hydrogen hub?

Paul Comfort:

Is it a place where, I don't know, tell me what it is.

Tim Sasseen:

This is the place where federal policy really got it right.

Tim Sasseen:

They listened to industry, because for hydrogen, it benefits to have more and

Tim Sasseen:

more users and producers concentrated in a region, which is very different

Tim Sasseen:

from the grid and battery concerns.

Tim Sasseen:

The grid gets congested, and it gets difficult to run that distribution

Tim Sasseen:

infrastructure when you've got a lot of loads and flows together,

Tim Sasseen:

so you want them dispersed.

Tim Sasseen:

With hydrogen, to make it economically, you want to have

Tim Sasseen:

very large scale electrolyzers.

Tim Sasseen:

steam methane reformers or pyrolysis plants.

Tim Sasseen:

Big capital equipment to really amortize over that production cost and you

Tim Sasseen:

can get low cost hydrogen that way.

Tim Sasseen:

The same with the end users of it.

Tim Sasseen:

The more that you have in one place, the more you can justify the economics

Tim Sasseen:

of building that hydrogen production.

Tim Sasseen:

So bringing together producers and consumers in one geographic

Tim Sasseen:

region makes a lot of sense.

Tim Sasseen:

Transportation of the hydrogen, it helps.

Tim Sasseen:

Hydrogen is typically consumed.

Tim Sasseen:

in gaseous or liquid form by fleet.

Tim Sasseen:

And when you move it by gas, you can only fit so much on a truckload, maybe

Tim Sasseen:

1, 500 kilograms or so, and the economic distance of that is probably something

Tim Sasseen:

from 100 to let's say 300 miles.

Tim Sasseen:

With liquid, you get much farther, 500 to 1000 miles, but still, beyond

Tim Sasseen:

that, the transportation of the fuel itself starts to become more expensive

Tim Sasseen:

. So, it makes sense to have them co located, and that's

Tim Sasseen:

the idea of hydrogen hubs.

Tim Sasseen:

So, the DOE set up through the Office of Clean Energy, deployments this concept

Tim Sasseen:

for a limited number of hydrogen hubs.

Tim Sasseen:

We've got seven of them throughout the United States, where people are

Tim Sasseen:

putting together business plans for producing and consuming the hydrogen.

Tim Sasseen:

And that allows fleets and other hydrogen consumers, industrial consumers, other

Tim Sasseen:

users of hydrogen, confidence to invest.

Tim Sasseen:

In hydrogen vehicle, in hydrogen technology, because

Tim Sasseen:

they know the fuel is coming.

Tim Sasseen:

So not only does it help to drive down the economics, it helps to build up market

Tim Sasseen:

confidence . That hydrogen is coming.

Tim Sasseen:

It is coming in a clean form and it's coming in a way that's

Tim Sasseen:

going to be economic and cost competitive, if not cheaper in the,

Tim Sasseen:

in the long run than fossil fuels.

Paul Comfort:

It's very exciting.

Paul Comfort:

I think, everyone is concerned about the environment.

Paul Comfort:

They're concerned about clean air, clean water.

Paul Comfort:

And so, to me, it makes sense to have multiple.

Paul Comfort:

You know, all of the above kind of approaches, right?

Paul Comfort:

So people are looking at all sorts of energy that emits less emissions.

Paul Comfort:

but the practical question for people listening, to this podcast today,

Paul Comfort:

most of whom work in and around the public transit industry is, you

Paul Comfort:

know, how does this practically work?

Paul Comfort:

So Kirt, could you walk us through if I'm a, transit CEO in Louisiana and All right.

Paul Comfort:

I got you.

Paul Comfort:

I heard Kirt.

Paul Comfort:

I heard Tim.

Paul Comfort:

I heard 10 things about this and I get that the grid is congested and, and I

Paul Comfort:

need to maybe consider other options.

Paul Comfort:

and so I don't want to have a problem, you know, if we get flooded

Paul Comfort:

and all my vehicles are electric and the grid goes down and I've

Paul Comfort:

got no way to evacuate my city.

Paul Comfort:

I want to see what other options are out there.

Paul Comfort:

I want to get a hydrogen bus.

Paul Comfort:

What now?

Kirt Conrad:

So we, we kind of talked about earlier on, the, a lot of, a

Kirt Conrad:

lot of fleets have used compressed natural gas, which is a gaseous form.

Kirt Conrad:

And really what hydrogen is, is, is just another gaseous form of production.

Kirt Conrad:

So it fuels just like CNG does it, it acts like natural gas.

Kirt Conrad:

the safety protocols you have to do is take natural gas and really

Kirt Conrad:

us in the hydrogen field, maybe Tim is, but aren't really that bright.

Kirt Conrad:

And so we stole all of that infrastructure protocols from the natural gas guys and

Kirt Conrad:

applied it to hydrogen . So a lot of these safety protocols and fueling protocols

Kirt Conrad:

have been around for a long time.

Kirt Conrad:

But if you're trying to get hydrogen at your location,

Kirt Conrad:

you can either do it two ways.

Kirt Conrad:

One, produce it on site or get it delivered.

Kirt Conrad:

Producing it on site, you're either going to produce it through a form

Kirt Conrad:

that's called, through natural gas, or you're going to use, use

Kirt Conrad:

electrolysis to split water, split water, into, into hydrogen and

Kirt Conrad:

oxygen.

Paul Comfort:

Interesting.

Paul Comfort:

Is that, is that what, uh, you've been out to that location, right?

Paul Comfort:

Where, uh, in Sunline Transit, they, I walked, I went, I went in

Paul Comfort:

their factory where she made that.

Paul Comfort:

Is that, is that what that process is?

Paul Comfort:

They're breaking it apart?

Paul Comfort:

Do you know?

Kirt Conrad:

Yeah, so, so Sunline and then, Champaign Urbana

Kirt Conrad:

have a one ton electrolyzer.

Kirt Conrad:

Okay.

Kirt Conrad:

That makes a ton of hydrogen a day.

Kirt Conrad:

Why we mix tons and grams, kilograms together.

Kirt Conrad:

I don't know.

Kirt Conrad:

I could go down this whole measurement thing of Yeah.

Kirt Conrad:

Imperial white kilo and, and I, I don't know.

Kirt Conrad:

And sometimes my, my accounting people are like, why do we get

Kirt Conrad:

it in gallons but dispense it in kilograms and like, I don't know.

Paul Comfort:

That's, that's really good.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah.

Paul Comfort:

Keep going.

Paul Comfort:

Oh, it's,

Kirt Conrad:

it's, I, I could get into whole monologue about measurements

Kirt Conrad:

and getting into this stuff.

Kirt Conrad:

It's kind of funny.

Paul Comfort:

I'll have to have you on my next comedy routine.

Kirt Conrad:

We at a Kill a Juul or a mega mega.

Kirt Conrad:

There you go.

Paul Comfort:

All right.

Paul Comfort:

So you got to make a decision whether to truck it in or make it

Paul Comfort:

yourself and there's a couple ways you can make it and then what?

Kirt Conrad:

And so, and so, really, let's just say the, the main, the main

Kirt Conrad:

way people do it is liquid hydrogen, which a liquid is at minus 500, 530

Kirt Conrad:

degrees in a, in a liquid form, and then need to convert it to, to, to, a gas.

Kirt Conrad:

So everything in the industry is gas is on board.

Kirt Conrad:

If vehicles on board, the cars you see in California, big

Kirt Conrad:

trucks, everything's gaseous.

Kirt Conrad:

It's a 10, it's a car's at 10,000 PSIA bus is at 5,000 PSI.

Kirt Conrad:

And then from there, you just dispense it.

Kirt Conrad:

You hook it up to could, could hook up the car and fuel it.

Kirt Conrad:

It's pretty simple to do.

Paul Comfort:

How do I get a bus though?

Paul Comfort:

Where would I get a bus from?

Paul Comfort:

Who's making hydrogen buses?

Paul Comfort:

OEM's doing it?

Paul Comfort:

Like, like major manufacturers of buses?

Kirt Conrad:

Yeah, so, E& C was doing it earlier this year, but as you said that

Kirt Conrad:

they're going out, New Flyers is building them, we actually are taking our first

Kirt Conrad:

delivery of our first, New Flyer bus here, probably in the next couple weeks.

Kirt Conrad:

now on the small bus market, SARTA, we were actually the first ones in the

Kirt Conrad:

country to build a paratransit vehicle, and now there's a couple other ones that

Kirt Conrad:

are coming on market, so hopefully by the end of this year, you'll see additional

Kirt Conrad:

hydrogen vehicles, coming online.

Kirt Conrad:

But, you know, the one thing, it was kind of funny, we have the New Flyer rep here,

Kirt Conrad:

and I said, yeah, I just want a bus, can I go on your website somewhere, put it in my

Kirt Conrad:

basket, then check out on the other side.

Kirt Conrad:

He said, I want to, but you can't really do that, but you

Kirt Conrad:

can leave your credit card here.

Kirt Conrad:

There you go.

Kirt Conrad:

So, I mean, really building it isn't any different than a battery vehicle.

Paul Comfort:

So they'll build it right on the line for you.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, build right on.

Paul Comfort:

FD Om.

Paul Comfort:

Okay, good.

Paul Comfort:

And how much does, how long does it take and how much do they cost?

Paul Comfort:

You just bought one, so give us roundabout numbers.

Paul Comfort:

I know, you know, if you get the electric locks it may be a little bit more, but

Paul Comfort:

, Kirt Conrad: it's gonna be white, 1.2 to 1.3, and it could be as low as.

Paul Comfort:

under a million if you order more than 10 vehicles, and actually if you order

Paul Comfort:

before midnight tonight with coupon code SAVE20%, you can get it lower.

Paul Comfort:

You get

Paul Comfort:

a ginsu knife?

Paul Comfort:

Okay.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, yeah.

Paul Comfort:

so how long will it take?

Paul Comfort:

If, if, how long did yours take?

Paul Comfort:

You just ordered one when?

Paul Comfort:

Last April?

Kirt Conrad:

Yeah.

Kirt Conrad:

yeah, last April we should be getting about a year or so.

Kirt Conrad:

About a

Paul Comfort:

year.

Paul Comfort:

Okay.

Paul Comfort:

All right.

Paul Comfort:

So 1.

Paul Comfort:

2 million and a year, and you can have a hydrogen bus.

Paul Comfort:

You just got to make sure, then you got that year to figure out how you're

Paul Comfort:

going to get the fuel in, whether you're going to truck it or build it up.

Kirt Conrad:

Yeah.

Kirt Conrad:

And you have to make sure you have the compressing station and, and,

Kirt Conrad:

and that, and you also have to make sure you have your building.

Kirt Conrad:

So everyone's used to the danger we have in, in, in traditional vehicles.

Kirt Conrad:

If you have a leak in your diesel vehicle, it hits the

Kirt Conrad:

ground and it may have a puddle.

Kirt Conrad:

And that's, that's the issue.

Paul Comfort:

That's why you don't smoke near the gas tank.

Kirt Conrad:

try not to.

Kirt Conrad:

You're right.

Kirt Conrad:

I can tell you stories about that too.

Kirt Conrad:

On the comedy side about.

Kirt Conrad:

People digging up.

Kirt Conrad:

Anyway, so, so that's the floor down with nitrogen.

Kirt Conrad:

It's really from the ceiling down where you could accumulate in a pocket.

Kirt Conrad:

So you need to make sure you've got sensors in your building and you

Kirt Conrad:

also have fans, that kind of stuff.

Kirt Conrad:

So you have, you, you've got three parts you have to look at.

Kirt Conrad:

The bus, the fueling itself, and then the safety of the building

Kirt Conrad:

that you're going to maintain your vehicles in when you're, when you're

Kirt Conrad:

getting your, your bus, so to speak.

Paul Comfort:

And if, Tim, if someone is interested, it, it, there's a

Paul Comfort:

lot of stuff to it is what Tim, what Kirt's explaining, right?

Paul Comfort:

It's not just the vehicles, the fueling, it's the facilities, but there's a

Paul Comfort:

group called the Hydrogen Council that you guys are a part of where people can

Paul Comfort:

get a lot of that information, right?

Tim Sasseen:

Yeah, the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Council.

Tim Sasseen:

It's an organization of transit fuel cell electric bus users and potential

Tim Sasseen:

users and manufacturers as well.

Tim Sasseen:

They're doing a lot on the policy monitoring side, but also in education.

Tim Sasseen:

It's a great group to work with and to reach out to.

Tim Sasseen:

They're getting their information together now.

Tim Sasseen:

I'd say you check out their website and there's a lot of

Tim Sasseen:

information that they can provide.

Paul Comfort:

Tim, when will these hydrogen hubs, so let's say I want

Paul Comfort:

to find out, is there one near me?

Paul Comfort:

Where can I get that information?

Tim Sasseen:

the Office of Clean Energy Demonstrations is

Tim Sasseen:

administering the hydrogen hubs.

Tim Sasseen:

That's a good place to start.

Tim Sasseen:

Simple Google search can get you there.

Tim Sasseen:

and they can redirect you also to each of the seven different hubs.

Tim Sasseen:

Each hub has an organization that administers it.

Tim Sasseen:

there's a part of the one in the Midwest.

Tim Sasseen:

but that group can help to guide you.

Tim Sasseen:

And they're all different structures.

Tim Sasseen:

some have heavy academic influence.

Tim Sasseen:

Some have heavy industry influence.

Tim Sasseen:

Some are governmental.

Tim Sasseen:

They're all different business models with different approaches to what

Tim Sasseen:

they're doing based on that funding.

Tim Sasseen:

And they're just finishing up their negotiations right now with the Department

Tim Sasseen:

of Energy for that final budget agreement.

Paul Comfort:

That's great.

Paul Comfort:

I mean, I could talk to you guys for another hour about all this,

Paul Comfort:

but we're almost out of time.

Paul Comfort:

Kirt, what final thoughts do you have for people who are interested in hydrogen?

Kirt Conrad:

Well, I think the bottom line is if you're really going to want

Kirt Conrad:

to find a drop in replacement for your diesel bus that can run in all, all times,

Kirt Conrad:

all kinds of weather and all kinds of, conditions, hydrogen vehicles for you.

Kirt Conrad:

Now, I will say that there are use cases where battery electric is probably has,

Kirt Conrad:

has a, as a, has a paratransit, is a good, good fit or peak hour commuter traffic.

Kirt Conrad:

We're actually gonna be getting a couple battery electric buses to run

Kirt Conrad:

into peak hour service into Cleveland.

Kirt Conrad:

So I, I think that there are ca use cases for both, but I think, the fuel cell

Kirt Conrad:

hydrant bus is your better choice to, to replace your typical D diesel 40 footer.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, everybody wants to decarbonize their fleet.

Paul Comfort:

Tim, what are your, what is your final thoughts?

Tim Sasseen:

So, reach out to your fuel providers as soon as possible.

Tim Sasseen:

If you are interested in hydrogen fuel cell electric buses, there's a lot of

Tim Sasseen:

great things they can do operationally for you, but your timelines these days are

Tim Sasseen:

really set by All that fuel infrastructure and the partners that you work with.

Tim Sasseen:

So if you get interested, if you can visit places like SARTA, they definitely know

Tim Sasseen:

what's going on, but they're busy often.

Tim Sasseen:

but do check out the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Council, get information, get involved

Tim Sasseen:

in the fuel conversation sooner rather than later, and folks like New Flyer can

Tim Sasseen:

set you up with the buses, no problem.

Paul Comfort:

That's great.

Paul Comfort:

And in our show notes of the podcast this week, we'll put links to all these.

Paul Comfort:

Plus, Kirt's head of a group called, I think, the Midwest Center of Excellence.

Paul Comfort:

There's one out west, right, where people can learn more.

Paul Comfort:

Is that right, Kirt?

Kirt Conrad:

Yeah, that's, that's correct.

Kirt Conrad:

Along with Iowa State and Cleveland State, we put together a center where we do

Kirt Conrad:

outreach and training, for individuals coming into this new technology.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, and, and I guess to wrap it up from my perspective, no

Paul Comfort:

one's talking down electric, battery electric, you know, it's just, it's just

Paul Comfort:

what Kirt said, I think is what a lot of transit CEOs are telling me, and I

Paul Comfort:

bet you I've talked to a half dozen in the last week who have said to me, you

Paul Comfort:

know, look, We like battery electric.

Paul Comfort:

It's great, but we need more options, because it doesn't meet all of our needs.

Paul Comfort:

And so we're looking into other options.

Paul Comfort:

And one of them is we're looking into hydrogen.

Paul Comfort:

Others, you know, are looking into these other types of fuels I mentioned, like

Paul Comfort:

in Vancouver, they just announced some different fuels they're looking into.

Paul Comfort:

So there's lots of options, but the end goal, like, Stephen Covey, Seven

Paul Comfort:

Habits of Highly Effective people says, begin with the end in mind.

Paul Comfort:

I think everyone has the same goal in mind, which is to have

Paul Comfort:

a clean fuel for their fleet.

Paul Comfort:

To help contribute to a cleaner environment for all of us and

Paul Comfort:

then you work your way backwards and see what works for you.

Paul Comfort:

There's a famous quote, that Peter Rogoff is credited with.

Paul Comfort:

It says, you know, if you've seen one transit system,

Paul Comfort:

you've seen one transit system.

Paul Comfort:

And, and that's because, you know, the, the, government structures are different,

Paul Comfort:

the locations, the temperatures, the operating environment, all that is

Paul Comfort:

different, and, this is an opportunity to educate yourself on one of the options

Paul Comfort:

which will help fuel your fleet, and I thank you, Tim, and Kirt and Carter McCoy

Paul Comfort:

from the, Hydrogen Bus Council for helping to set up this interview to kind of give a

Paul Comfort:

little bit more information to people who are considering what their options are.

Paul Comfort:

Thank you.

Paul Comfort:

Thank you, Paul.

Paul Comfort:

Alright, take care, guys.

Tris Hussey:

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of transit

Tris Hussey:

unplugged with our special guests, Kirt Conrad, and Tim Sasseen.

Tris Hussey:

We've created a special playlist, including this episode, all

Tris Hussey:

about hydrogen and hydrogen fuel.

Tris Hussey:

So if you want to have a listen and dive deep into this topic,

Tris Hussey:

well, that's the playlist for you.

Tris Hussey:

Next week.

Tris Hussey:

We have another episode swap and this time it's with our friend and

Tris Hussey:

past guest, Brandon Bartek from the Future of Mobility podcast.

Tris Hussey:

Brandon and his guest.

Tris Hussey:

Larry Burns, who is a visionary leader in autonomous vehicles are talking

Tris Hussey:

about the future of autonomous vehicles.

Tris Hussey:

Make sure you don't miss a thing going on at Transit Unplugged by

Tris Hussey:

connecting with us on social media and subscribing to our newsletter.

Tris Hussey:

You can find everything@transitunplugged.com.

Tris Hussey:

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo.

Tris Hussey:

Modaxo we're passionate about moving the world's people.

Tris Hussey:

And a transit unplugged.

Tris Hussey:

We're passionate about telling those stories.

Tris Hussey:

So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.

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Transit Unplugged
Leading podcast on public transit hosted by Paul Comfort, SVP Modaxo.

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