If we can’t get new buses, how can we move more people?

Paul Comfort: 00:00:05

Is America facing a bus supply and availability crisis?

Paul Comfort: 00:00:09

I'm Paul Comfort, and on this episode of Transit Unplugged, we speak with

Paul Comfort: 00:00:12

the executive director of America's Bus Coalition, Ed Redfern, and also

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their Washington advocate for the organization Joel Rubin about the

Paul Comfort: 00:00:21

supply chain concern that many public transit agencies are facing right now.

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And we bring in Julia Castillo and Brooke Ramsey, the Executive Director

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and Business Manager for HIRTA the Heart of Iowa Regional Transit Agency,

Paul Comfort: 00:00:35

and they talk about the troubles they've been having with large price

Paul Comfort: 00:00:38

increases and availability of buses.

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So much so that they've led a multi state coalition with a request to

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the Federal Transit Administration to grant a Buy America waiver

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for an offshore bus manufacturer.

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We also take a look at the supply side and we speak with Patrick Scully, who

Paul Comfort: 00:00:54

was Chief Commercial Officer for one of America's largest bus suppliers.

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He gives some ideas on interim solutions while the market, he says, works

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its way out after this post pandemic period of supply chain challenges.

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All this on Transit Unplugged.

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We're excited today to have a great in depth interview with four leading

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experts here in the United States talking about one of our biggest challenges,

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which is buses, the lack of buses.

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And we've got a great panel put together by the bus coalition.

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and so we're going to dive in today into some of the challenges we're having on

Paul Comfort: 00:01:31

the supply side and what some possible solutions are when it comes to making

Paul Comfort: 00:01:35

sure we have enough buses, both, you know, battery electric, hydrogen,

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and the old traditional diesel buses.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:40

So great to have with us my good friend, Ed Redfern, who's the executive

Paul Comfort: 00:01:43

director of the bus coalition.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:44

Ed, thank you for helping to put together this panel for us.

Paul Comfort: 00:01:47

Talk about this hot topic.

Ed Redfern: 00:01:48

Uh, we, we appreciate you having us on.

Ed Redfern: 00:01:52

Our, our concern, of course, is the availability of buses, the problems that

Ed Redfern: 00:01:58

systems, like HIRTA in Des Moines is having getting bus, any buses, at all.

Ed Redfern: 00:02:05

And that, problem is a national problem.

Ed Redfern: 00:02:09

It is not local to just one or two systems.

Ed Redfern: 00:02:12

It's, clearly becoming a, real, issue in providing service.

Ed Redfern: 00:02:19

To the people that all our transit systems, not only in the rural

Ed Redfern: 00:02:22

areas, but, in, paratransit service around the United States.

Ed Redfern: 00:02:28

So, the bus coalition, which I am executive director of and started, 10

Ed Redfern: 00:02:33

years ago, we have gotten involved, but in support a lot with, uh, CTAA.

Ed Redfern: 00:02:40

they've kind of taken the lead on this issue because so many, all, I guess all of

Ed Redfern: 00:02:45

their systems are basically hurt by what's going on in the industry at this time.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:51

Yeah.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:51

I remember, I think it was at the CTAA conference where you first came up to

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me and said, Paul, this is a real issue.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:57

We need to, we need to focus on this.

Paul Comfort: 00:02:59

And I was able to go to your Bus Coalition meeting at APTA Expo in Orlando this

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year, a big group, a massive group.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:07

And, and it was also a focus there.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:09

And just, uh, before we go any further, give us 30 seconds on the Bus

Paul Comfort: 00:03:12

Coalition, who you are, how big you are.

Paul Comfort: 00:03:14

It's a very impressive organization.

Ed Redfern: 00:03:16

We, the bus coalition started about 10 years ago when they cut the,

Ed Redfern: 00:03:20

funding for bus transits, uh, programs by about 60 percent and, uh, a number

Ed Redfern: 00:03:28

of 17, transit systems from around the country, I put them together, we sat

Ed Redfern: 00:03:34

down and we started this coalition.

Ed Redfern: 00:03:36

We focus on one thing and that is, This is bus transit funding.

Ed Redfern: 00:03:41

we, we agree that all transit modes and, uh, programs need to be lifted together.

Ed Redfern: 00:03:48

And we, we tried to, and we got in, the last authorization bill, a pretty sizable

Ed Redfern: 00:03:55

increase in bus funding, and at the same time, set it up so that we were back at

Ed Redfern: 00:04:00

the 20 percent level for bus systems.

Ed Redfern: 00:04:04

From all transit funds.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:05

That's good.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:06

And how many members do you have and where they spread geographically?

Ed Redfern: 00:04:09

Well, they're all over the United States.

Ed Redfern: 00:04:11

Uh, we're, uh, I think, 48 of the states we have about 900 members.

Ed Redfern: 00:04:18

and , of that, about 200 of them are paying members.

Ed Redfern: 00:04:22

Others are just regular members have joined and agree

Ed Redfern: 00:04:26

with what we're trying to do.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:28

And you mentioned some of the work you do is in Washington, D.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:30

C., or most of it is.

Paul Comfort: 00:04:31

And Joel Rubin, you help them do that, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:04:33

Uh, introduce yourself for us.

Joel Rubin: 00:04:35

Yeah, you bet.

Joel Rubin: 00:04:35

Thanks so much, Paul.

Joel Rubin: 00:04:36

I really appreciate the opportunity.

Joel Rubin: 00:04:38

so my name is Joel Rubin.

Joel Rubin: 00:04:39

I work for the Bus Coalition.

Joel Rubin: 00:04:41

I'm their Washington representative, which basically means they're boots

Joel Rubin: 00:04:44

on the ground here in Washington, D.

Joel Rubin: 00:04:46

C., and been fighting and working with Ed and our Bus Coalition board to make

Joel Rubin: 00:04:50

sure that folks on Capitol Hill and the administration understand the value of

Joel Rubin: 00:04:56

buses, understand the benefits that bus transit service provides to communities

Joel Rubin: 00:05:01

across the country, and in urban or rural and suburban areas and, um, like Ed

Joel Rubin: 00:05:06

said, our main focus is on getting those resources back to where they were and

Joel Rubin: 00:05:10

where they need to be for bus transit, um, to get funding for bus replacement,

Joel Rubin: 00:05:15

bus expansion and bus facilities.

Paul Comfort: 00:05:17

That's great.

Paul Comfort: 00:05:18

Thank you.

Paul Comfort: 00:05:18

Thank you for being here with us.

Paul Comfort: 00:05:19

We're going to talk about, um, some of the areas that are solutions

Paul Comfort: 00:05:23

such as a Buy America waiver with you a little bit later.

Paul Comfort: 00:05:26

Also excited to have with us Julie Castillo from HIRTA, the

Paul Comfort: 00:05:29

heart of Iowa Transit Agency.

Paul Comfort: 00:05:31

Welcome, Julia.

Julia Castillo: 00:05:32

Thank you, Paul.

Julia Castillo: 00:05:33

Hi, I am from HIRTA, and we are located in central Iowa.

Julia Castillo: 00:05:37

We service seven counties that are all rural.

Julia Castillo: 00:05:41

They surround the Des Moines metro area, and we cover about 4, 000 square miles.

Julia Castillo: 00:05:46

Wow, that's massive!

Julia Castillo: 00:05:48

It is massive.

Julia Castillo: 00:05:49

Um, we have about 70 vehicles in our fleet, and we have, since post

Julia Castillo: 00:05:55

pandemic, we now have, about 60 employees, um, including the drivers.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:00

Very good.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:01

And we're going to talk to you about some of the issues you've been having,

Paul Comfort: 00:06:04

uh, trying to get buses and Brooke Ramsey, you've been at the, the lead

Paul Comfort: 00:06:07

of this, trying to get buses for them.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:09

Tell us about yourself and what you do there at HIRTA.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:11

Hi, Paul.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:11

Thank you.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:12

so I'm the business manager at HIRTA.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:15

I've worked for Julia for 13 years, believe it or not.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:17

And.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:18

I've done a lot of things, uh, at the agency that's common in rural systems, um,

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:23

but one of the things I'm responsible for is heading the procurement of our fleet

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:28

and ordering, the vehicles for our system.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:31

So, it has been very challenging, as you've heard from all of us here

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:35

today, and we're looking forward to trying to find some resolutions.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:39

Tell us about, I mean, while we're here talking to you, tell us

Paul Comfort: 00:06:42

about the challenges you've been having.

Paul Comfort: 00:06:43

What, what are you doing and what are the issues you're

Paul Comfort: 00:06:45

facing and trying to get buses?

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:47

So as an example, um, we ordered vehicles two years ago and

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:53

our ve our orders were canceled by the manufacturer stating that they could

Brooke Ramsey: 00:06:57

no longer make the vehicles at the price that they had in the contracts

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:02

so we had to work with our state DOT on how to address this issue, and

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:08

they were able to secure new contracts that caused a delay in delivery.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:13

Some of the vehicles still have not been, completed.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:16

We just received 9 of 18 vehicles that we ordered 2 years ago, and

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:23

Julia did downsize the fleet, as she mentioned, during the pandemic.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:27

So we also looked at the number of vehicles and the type of vehicles

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:32

that we were using in service, trying to help curb some of this issue.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:37

So, with the Ford Transits that we started to order, those

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:41

increased in cost by over $20,000.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:44

With the cutaway buses is particularly challenging and getting

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:49

deliveries, but also with the cost.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:52

So a vehicle that we ordered before COVID was about $100,000.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:07:58

And now that same vehicle is over $175000.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:03

And that does not include everything it takes for us to make

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:07

the vehicle ready for service.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:08

Graphics, radios.

Paul Comfort: 00:08:10

So you're probably only able to buy half as many as

Paul Comfort: 00:08:12

you thought you had a budget for

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:14

Yeah, we're, and we're starting to talk about that too.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:16

If, if we have vehicles, that we have through the 5339 program

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:21

that are eligible to be replaced, how are we going to handle this?

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:25

Because even the amount of money we requested on 5339 grants, Doesn't

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:31

meet the amount of money it's going to cost to replace them.

Ed Redfern: 00:08:34

Brooke, what is the age of your fleet?

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:38

Yeah, Ed, that's a great point.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:39

the state of Iowa has the second oldest fleet in the nation.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:43

And within Iowa, HIRTA has the second oldest fleet.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:47

before COVID, our fleet was probably sitting about 60

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:52

percent past its useful life.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:08:54

And as of today, we're at 88% . And we're not talking a little past useful life.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:09:00

We're talking three times past the useful life.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:09:03

So if a vehicle should be in service, um, five years, we're running them 13

Brooke Ramsey: 00:09:09

years before they're replaced, and this was before this manufacturing crisis.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:09:14

So now we've got these vehicles, they're 15 years old.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:09:19

And we can't get the replacements.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:21

That's something.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:21

Or parts.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:22

Or parts, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:09:22

Yeah, or parts.

Paul Comfort: 00:09:24

And Joel, is this a problem that you're seeing all across the country?

Joel Rubin: 00:09:27

Yeah, absolutely.

Joel Rubin: 00:09:28

Paul, it's, it's pretty alarming that, you know, and we, as Ed

Joel Rubin: 00:09:31

mentioned, we work with CTAA.

Joel Rubin: 00:09:32

CTAA did a, uh, a study, um, a few months back and looked at the supply chain

Joel Rubin: 00:09:38

challenges in the cutaway marketplace.

Joel Rubin: 00:09:41

And what they found were over 50 percent of the orders that were out

Joel Rubin: 00:09:44

there for cutaways were canceled, like.

Joel Rubin: 00:09:46

Julie and Brooke mentioned, so just canceled, across all 50 states.

Joel Rubin: 00:09:50

and then 50 percent of that, 50 percent of the states had canceled contracts.

Joel Rubin: 00:09:56

Yeah.

Joel Rubin: 00:09:57

And then in addition to that, there's currently a 20, 000 bus

Joel Rubin: 00:10:01

the cutaway bus backlog that's anticipated to jump up to about

Joel Rubin: 00:10:05

26, 000 cutaway backlog by 2026.

Joel Rubin: 00:10:10

Just, it's really difficult to get them.

Joel Rubin: 00:10:12

The delivery times are two to three years and the cost, as Julie and

Joel Rubin: 00:10:16

Brooke were mentioning, going from 90, 000 to 170, 000 for just the

Joel Rubin: 00:10:21

diesel cutaway is significant.

Joel Rubin: 00:10:23

But in addition to that, if you want to get an electric cutaway, HIRTA put

Joel Rubin: 00:10:27

out a bid for an electric cutaway, uh, which lasts five to seven years

Joel Rubin: 00:10:31

useful life, and the cost of that electric cutaway was 388, 000 for a

Joel Rubin: 00:10:36

bus that lasts five to seven years.

Joel Rubin: 00:10:38

It's a challenge that we, as a bus coalition, see all of these

Joel Rubin: 00:10:42

new resources coming in through the infrastructure package.

Joel Rubin: 00:10:45

We want federal money to go towards be spent wisely and go

Joel Rubin: 00:10:49

towards needs in the community.

Joel Rubin: 00:10:51

But with these accelerated costs and with the slow delivery times, our

Joel Rubin: 00:10:55

members are getting really worried about, uh, really implementing the

Joel Rubin: 00:10:59

law that, uh, the way members of Congress wanted it to be implemented.

Paul Comfort: 00:11:03

Julia, what is happening locally, like politically

Paul Comfort: 00:11:06

to your funding sources?

Paul Comfort: 00:11:07

When you come to them with these issues, what are you hearing from them?

Julia Castillo: 00:11:10

they're struggling With other types of issues.

Julia Castillo: 00:11:13

And so the funding that we typically got for match money for the vehicles

Julia Castillo: 00:11:19

is slowly dwindling and that becomes creates another problem.

Julia Castillo: 00:11:25

And I think what I really want to say.

Julia Castillo: 00:11:28

As the supply chain issue, big problem, but what that's going to entail if

Julia Castillo: 00:11:35

we don't come up with some type of a solution is smaller transit systems,

Julia Castillo: 00:11:40

especially in the rural areas where people depend on us for the services

Julia Castillo: 00:11:45

because there is no Lyfts and Ubers and other types of places for them to go.

Julia Castillo: 00:11:51

Um, if we don't have buses to transport people in, we're going

Julia Castillo: 00:11:56

to have to cut our services.

Julia Castillo: 00:11:58

And so this is like a major issue and, you know, if we're putting 13 year old buses

Julia Castillo: 00:12:04

on the road, we can't get parts for them.

Julia Castillo: 00:12:07

And so they're just sitting in lots, you know, because we can't use them.

Julia Castillo: 00:12:12

We can't buy new buses, whether they're gas or whether they're

Julia Castillo: 00:12:15

electric, we can't get them.

Julia Castillo: 00:12:18

So that was part of our decision to go with smaller like Ford Transits.

Julia Castillo: 00:12:23

Which are great, but then you, that, requires more drivers, which we

Julia Castillo: 00:12:27

also know there's usually a driver shortage where we go, even though

Julia Castillo: 00:12:31

they don't have to have a CDL.

Julia Castillo: 00:12:32

That's still an issue too, so it's just perpetuating itself, and it's going to

Julia Castillo: 00:12:38

eventually hurt the people that we're here to serve the most if we do not get

Julia Castillo: 00:12:43

a handle on how this crisis, which I will call it a crisis, doesn't have a

Julia Castillo: 00:12:48

solution at the end, which is why, HIRTA took the lead on creating a coalition

Julia Castillo: 00:12:55

of sorts to go after a Buy America waiver for an electric vehicle that

Julia Castillo: 00:13:01

could help us get out of this situation.

Ed Redfern: 00:13:05

you have, what, 15, uh, electric buses you

Ed Redfern: 00:13:10

can put on the road today?

Ed Redfern: 00:13:11

You've got the federal money sitting there for those?

Julia Castillo: 00:13:14

We have 15 that we have been awarded, uh, contracts on, but we

Julia Castillo: 00:13:19

don't have any orders out yet because it doesn't make sense for us to pay

Julia Castillo: 00:13:25

$380,000 for a cutaway electric vehicle that's going to last us five years.

Julia Castillo: 00:13:32

I don't think that's the best use of the, of the money, but yes,

Julia Castillo: 00:13:36

we could do that, which would help our situation drastically.

Julia Castillo: 00:13:40

But that, we're just not there yet, unless this Buy America waiver

Julia Castillo: 00:13:43

should come through, which we're still very hopeful that it will.

Paul Comfort: 00:13:47

And Brooke, a cutaway bus for, maybe some people don't

Paul Comfort: 00:13:50

know what that terminology is, how many passengers would that hold?

Brooke Ramsey: 00:13:54

Well, that depends, you know, on the vehicle, but that

Brooke Ramsey: 00:13:57

could be anywhere from, for HIRTA, that could be anywhere from 10 to

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:01

18 people, um, some of them 20.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:04

Right.

Paul Comfort: 00:14:05

Just wanted to put out there, it's a midsize, smaller, it's

Paul Comfort: 00:14:08

actually a smaller midsize bus.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:10

Yeah, people tend, typically associate it with paratransit

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:14

services, paratransit type of vehicle.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:17

Um, I do just want to add a little bit to the context of the cost of these cutaways.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:22

And I know Joel mentioned $380,000, and that's right, that's just

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:26

for the vehicle, that's not for the charging infrastructure.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:29

So we're talking another, you know, six figure investment to charge the vehicle.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:34

And that doesn't take into account, when the batteries, the batteries have

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:38

a separate useful life than the vehicle.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:40

And so what happens when this vehicle for HIRTA Is expected, you know,

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:44

it's a five year useful life, but.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:46

History tells me that bus is going to be in our fleet for 13 years.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:51

If that, if that bus is in our fleet for 13 years, those batteries

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:54

are not going to last 13 years.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:56

And then how do we replace those?

Brooke Ramsey: 00:14:57

Because that's separate, that's a separate dollar amount.

Brooke Ramsey: 00:15:01

So These are some of the challenges that really kind of drove us, like Julia

Brooke Ramsey: 00:15:06

mentioned, creating the consortium with some of our peers in Washington and

Brooke Ramsey: 00:15:11

California, because we're all facing the same challenges and the same concerns.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:15

And Joel, one of the answers that you mentioned earlier,

Paul Comfort: 00:15:17

one of the possible solutions is a Buy America waiver because there are

Paul Comfort: 00:15:22

manufacturers evidently outside the US that maybe could help us, you know,

Paul Comfort: 00:15:28

supply some buses to Americans, but they don't meet Buy America requirements.

Paul Comfort: 00:15:31

Is that what's right?

Paul Comfort: 00:15:32

Is that what's happening?

Joel Rubin: 00:15:33

Yeah, Paul, there's, there are manufacturers that are,

Joel Rubin: 00:15:36

uh, based in Europe and outside of the United States that are interested

Joel Rubin: 00:15:39

in coming to the United States.

Joel Rubin: 00:15:41

Um, and that could be 1 possible solution to address some

Joel Rubin: 00:15:45

of the supply chain issues.

Joel Rubin: 00:15:47

Um, so we've been working with HIRTA on their Buy America waiver request,

Joel Rubin: 00:15:51

which was submitted to the Federal Transit Administration in August.

Joel Rubin: 00:15:56

And what we were really excited to see was we, uh, with their application that

Joel Rubin: 00:16:01

they They went along with, with folks from Washington State and California,

Joel Rubin: 00:16:05

uh, CTAA organized a rapid 48 hour letter writing campaign to try to get other

Joel Rubin: 00:16:13

state transit associations to support this waiver request and It's a little

Joel Rubin: 00:16:19

unusual for State Transit Associations to, support a Buy America waiver request.

Joel Rubin: 00:16:24

You know, there's some political implications there.

Joel Rubin: 00:16:26

Within 48 hours, we only had a 48 hour period for when CTAA first put

Joel Rubin: 00:16:31

out a call for letters of support for the consortium's waiver request.

Joel Rubin: 00:16:36

Within 48 hours, we had 21 State Transit Associations sign on to that letter, which

Joel Rubin: 00:16:42

was a full throated support letter, for HIRTA and the consortium's request for a

Joel Rubin: 00:16:48

Buy America waiver because they all know they're seeing these impacts all across

Joel Rubin: 00:16:52

the country and they wanted to be part of this effort to, to, uh, get this limited.

Joel Rubin: 00:16:58

Temporary waiver approved so that there could be some additional entrants from the

Joel Rubin: 00:17:03

European marketplace and elsewhere to come to the United States and start building

Joel Rubin: 00:17:07

that manufacturing base and I think meeting the spirit of Buy America, what

Joel Rubin: 00:17:12

basically the waiver is looking to do.

Joel Rubin: 00:17:14

is to bring more domestic manufacturing to the United States, and that if

Joel Rubin: 00:17:19

it's a temporary waiver, that would allow those companies to come here,

Joel Rubin: 00:17:23

set up manufacturing, but give them some time to set that up, um,

Joel Rubin: 00:17:27

and then ultimately comply with Buy America within a time period.

Joel Rubin: 00:17:31

Um, so we think it's good for the industry, but we also think it's

Joel Rubin: 00:17:34

good for the short term crisis that transit systems across the country are

Joel Rubin: 00:17:38

facing, and obviously those 21 state transit associations agreed as well.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:42

Ed, the, um, the other issue that's happening right now is

Paul Comfort: 00:17:45

there's billions of dollars, some of it you fought for us to get to,

Paul Comfort: 00:17:49

uh, purchase zero emission buses, and now we're having another crisis

Paul Comfort: 00:17:52

when it comes to the manufacturers.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:54

Tell us about that.

Paul Comfort: 00:17:56

Joel, go ahead.

Joel Rubin: 00:17:57

Yeah, so it is a little, so I remember November 2021 when

Joel Rubin: 00:18:01

the infrastructure law was signed, uh, shortly thereafter, there was

Joel Rubin: 00:18:05

an APTA conference and everybody was so excited about the opportunities

Joel Rubin: 00:18:09

associated with all the new revenue that we've been advocating for for years.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:14

Um, so, you know, going into.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:16

Implementation of the infrastructure package, we were all pretty excited,

Joel Rubin: 00:18:20

but then you started to see all of these complications with COVID,

Joel Rubin: 00:18:23

the pandemic and the supply chain issues that were still lingering.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:27

And it impacts the small bus marketplace and still impacts the

Joel Rubin: 00:18:31

large bus marketplace as well.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:32

On the large bus space, we saw Nova bus pull out of New York.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:37

We saw Proterra declare bankruptcy.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:39

So we really only have 2 major.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:41

Uh, suppliers of, uh, bus manufacturer in the United States

Joel Rubin: 00:18:46

and then the small bus marketplace.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:48

You're seeing a limited marketplace as well.

Joel Rubin: 00:18:50

So, yes, we're so excited to all the investments that happened in the

Joel Rubin: 00:18:55

infrastructure package, but there are some really nasty headwinds

Joel Rubin: 00:18:58

that we're running against as well.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:00

Yeah, those two companies are New Flyer and Gillig, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:19:02

The other two that are remaining to meet Buy America, that are, uh, that are not

Paul Comfort: 00:19:07

bankrupt or pulling out of the market.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:08

Now, the one company, Proterra, was purchased, uh, or they're in

Paul Comfort: 00:19:12

the process of being purchased by another manufacturer, so

Paul Comfort: 00:19:14

we'll see what happens there.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:16

Ed, wrap it up for us.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:17

Uh, where are we at and where are we going?

Ed Redfern: 00:19:19

Well, we need the FTA to quickly respond to the,

Ed Redfern: 00:19:25

Buy America waiver request.

Ed Redfern: 00:19:27

They can get The one company that Julia, uh, and the consortium put together, the

Ed Redfern: 00:19:35

winning bid is a company, uh, from Turkey.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:39

Oh yeah, I saw that bus at the CTA Expo.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:41

I got a tour of that bus.

Paul Comfort: 00:19:42

That was a cool looking bus, man.

Ed Redfern: 00:19:44

it really is.

Ed Redfern: 00:19:45

And it's an actual bus.

Ed Redfern: 00:19:46

and it'll last twice as long.

Ed Redfern: 00:19:48

But the key to it is getting that Buy America waiver.

Ed Redfern: 00:19:52

Currently, they can ship those and have them between three and six months.

Ed Redfern: 00:19:58

So, that is, and it's happening today.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:02

There was one, uh, one system purchased with local funds.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:08

Fifteen of them.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:09

And they're all delivered.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:11

They're there getting ready to go on the road.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:13

We have another system of three that were purchased with local funds.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:17

They're on the road now . So those buses are coming in and we just need to get

Ed Redfern: 00:20:22

the FTA to move ahead, get this process going because there are a hell of a

Ed Redfern: 00:20:27

lot of voters out there that can't get service because we don't have the buses.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:33

And that's what bothers me and what concerns me is that we are going to

Ed Redfern: 00:20:37

have a real crisis across the country because we can't get people to dialysis

Ed Redfern: 00:20:44

or we can't get them to their doctor.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:46

And those are the people that we have to serve and FTA needs to move and move

Ed Redfern: 00:20:50

today on moving that process forward.

Ed Redfern: 00:20:53

They've had it for several months right now . But the timing is

Ed Redfern: 00:20:57

now that they need to move ahead.

Paul Comfort: 00:20:59

Julie, I'll give you the final word as the Executive

Paul Comfort: 00:21:02

Director of the agency that's helping to lead this coalition.

Julia Castillo: 00:21:05

Yeah, I will second what Ed says.

Julia Castillo: 00:21:07

I think we just need the government to move forward with this Buy America waiver.

Julia Castillo: 00:21:13

we did go, the winning bid was a purpose built bus, which also

Julia Castillo: 00:21:18

alleviates some additional issues, and it also has a longer battery life.

Julia Castillo: 00:21:23

And it is about hundreds of thousands of dollars cheaper, than

Julia Castillo: 00:21:27

what we could get another bus for.

Julia Castillo: 00:21:29

So I would just, encourage those that have the power that be, that do

Julia Castillo: 00:21:34

this as a temporary waiver so that we can get Another bus company or two

Julia Castillo: 00:21:39

or three or however many we can go after to come to the United States

Julia Castillo: 00:21:44

so that there's more competition, which will be better for everyone.

Julia Castillo: 00:21:49

And it doesn't just affect the small systems.

Julia Castillo: 00:21:51

These types of buses are also going to affect anyone who provides paratransit

Julia Castillo: 00:21:55

type services, if they use the smaller vehicles and that's a lot of our larger.

Julia Castillo: 00:22:00

Um, transit agencies as well, so this is a nationwide problem that

Julia Castillo: 00:22:04

has got to get fixed, or those most vulnerable are going to be the, the

Julia Castillo: 00:22:09

ones that suffer the most, and that's something we want to try to avoid at all

Julia Castillo: 00:22:13

costs.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:13

Well, thank you, Julia, Brooke, Ed, and Joel for bringing this

Paul Comfort: 00:22:16

issue to the fore, and uh, thank you for educating our listeners on your

Paul Comfort: 00:22:20

viewpoints on these important issues.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:28

It's a great hearing from, uh, some of the folks from the bus coalition and

Paul Comfort: 00:22:31

HIRTA about some of the issues they're having when it comes to acquiring buses.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:36

We have billions of dollars now that Congress has given us for these buses,

Paul Comfort: 00:22:40

but there is some supply chain issues.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:42

And so I wanted to talk to the supply side, uh, and so I had with me one of our

Paul Comfort: 00:22:46

industry stalwarts, a good friend of mine and, and APTA leader, et cetera, Patrick

Paul Comfort: 00:22:50

Scully, who works with Complete Coachworks

Paul Comfort: 00:22:52

And, uh, I ran into them.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:53

I think it was at APTA, wasn't it, Patrick?

Paul Comfort: 00:22:55

You all had an interception there.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:56

We started talking about it.

Paul Comfort: 00:22:57

I said, you know what?

Paul Comfort: 00:22:58

I should get you guys on the podcast too to talk about.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:01

Your perspective on this.

Paul Comfort: 00:23:02

So welcome to the show, Patrick.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:03

Thank you, Paul.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:04

And thank you so much for inviting us on.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:07

And we're all great fans, including not only the podcast, but everything

Patrick Scully: 00:23:11

else you do with music and food.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:14

So yeah, it's, it's a interesting time, Paul, a bit of a paradox, right?

Patrick Scully: 00:23:22

Where we've got.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:23

almost record funding for, zero emission equipment and

Patrick Scully: 00:23:27

new buses, uh, rolling stock.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:29

And yet we've got challenges with the supply side that, you know,

Patrick Scully: 00:23:33

primarily was COVID based, when it's taken, it's a long tailwind, uh, for

Patrick Scully: 00:23:38

the supply side to come out of that.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:40

And, uh, so we've got a gap, right?

Patrick Scully: 00:23:42

We've got, this period that we found ourselves in the last couple

Patrick Scully: 00:23:46

years and, and, and maybe just a few more months, hopefully.

Patrick Scully: 00:23:50

Uh, or, or short of a year that, you know, supply chain's trying to catch

Patrick Scully: 00:23:54

up from where, uh, we were before COVID and, and, uh, achieving deliveries

Patrick Scully: 00:24:00

for customers for specifically buses.

Patrick Scully: 00:24:03

But, you know, the way I see it, I call it bridging a gap because,

Patrick Scully: 00:24:07

uh, it's going to be short term.

Patrick Scully: 00:24:09

I think because the, um.

Patrick Scully: 00:24:11

Uh, market is resilient enough to be able to come out of it, has to

Patrick Scully: 00:24:15

be, obviously, it's a partnership.

Patrick Scully: 00:24:17

But, you know, we've seen solutions that may not be on the forefront

Patrick Scully: 00:24:21

of, everybody's list, and that's why we want to take the time to

Patrick Scully: 00:24:24

talk with you about those solutions.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:26

So Patrick, give us some of the solutions you mentioned.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:29

So, uh, some of the problems that folks from HIRTA mentioned were, um, long

Paul Comfort: 00:24:34

delays in getting buses delivered once they order them, they also mentioned

Paul Comfort: 00:24:38

that the costs have gone up dramatically to buy some of these buses, 50 or 70

Paul Comfort: 00:24:42

percent sometimes from kind of what their pre pandemic price was, so if a

Paul Comfort: 00:24:46

transit agency finds themselves kind of face with these kind of challenges.

Paul Comfort: 00:24:50

What are some suggestions you might have for them?

Patrick Scully: 00:24:52

Yeah, and I think, as I mentioned a moment

Patrick Scully: 00:24:54

ago, Paul, things will stabilize.

Patrick Scully: 00:24:56

Um, increases have certainly been there for all the reasons we know.

Patrick Scully: 00:24:59

I think, you know, some of them are here to stay.

Patrick Scully: 00:25:01

But the industry will stabilize.

Patrick Scully: 00:25:03

But in the end, in the interim, all right, what are those solutions?

Patrick Scully: 00:25:07

first and foremost, refurbishment or overhaul of existing equipment allows

Patrick Scully: 00:25:14

agencies to spend money already FTA funds for new buses that they can

Patrick Scully: 00:25:19

deploy and use to take their equipment, refurbish equipment, powertrain,

Patrick Scully: 00:25:26

seating, and basically allow those buses to last another 6 or 7 years.

Patrick Scully: 00:25:32

At much quicker time period, it can be done within six to nine months and

Patrick Scully: 00:25:37

at essentially, a few hundred thousand dollars, which is very significant

Patrick Scully: 00:25:42

reduction from the price of new vehicles.

Paul Comfort: 00:25:45

So that would be like a full size bus that they could do that with?

Patrick Scully: 00:25:48

Correct.

Patrick Scully: 00:25:49

And you can do it with, with medium sized buses.

Patrick Scully: 00:25:51

The challenge with, uh, smaller buses, shuttle buses.

Patrick Scully: 00:25:55

The cost of refurbishment tends to get away from itself versus new, but full

Patrick Scully: 00:25:59

size equipment, whether it's 30, 35, 40, 60 foot vehicles, um, it all works

Patrick Scully: 00:26:07

and is a, certainly a viable option.

Paul Comfort: 00:26:09

That's interesting, because I think, you know, a lot of

Paul Comfort: 00:26:11

people may think of mid life cycle overhauls for light rail vehicles, but

Paul Comfort: 00:26:16

maybe haven't considered it for buses.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:17

Yeah, some do, some have done it in house, but

Patrick Scully: 00:26:21

it is certainly a viable option.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:23

The other items, uh, that, uh, the other item that is also viable

Patrick Scully: 00:26:29

is to procure used equipment.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:32

Okay.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:32

Uh, they are available in the market, and essentially it's short term approach.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:37

obviously it would be for, you know, whether it's three to five years, but good

Patrick Scully: 00:26:41

quality used equipment is available in the market, available in the market, as are

Patrick Scully: 00:26:47

leasing options for the same equipment.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:49

So you've got these options that are there as agencies face this dilemma

Patrick Scully: 00:26:54

of, hey, I've got them on order.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:56

Long lead time.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:58

Big money.

Patrick Scully: 00:26:58

Bigger money.

Patrick Scully: 00:27:00

What can they do in the interim?

Patrick Scully: 00:27:01

There's clear solutions that are available.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:04

That's interesting.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:05

That's good.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:05

I don't think everyone is, is, uh, was fully aware of all that.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:08

Um, where do you think this goes long term?

Paul Comfort: 00:27:11

Do you, when you say you think that, well, that we're going to work our

Paul Comfort: 00:27:14

way out of this, I mean, on the electric bus side, we just, we used

Paul Comfort: 00:27:17

to have four manufacturers in the U.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:18

S.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:19

One just, uh, you know, pulled out of the market completely or said they

Paul Comfort: 00:27:22

were going to, and the other declared bankruptcy and is in the process of going

Paul Comfort: 00:27:26

through those bankruptcy proceedings.

Paul Comfort: 00:27:27

How do you see this stabilizing, uh, if we have really only, right now,

Paul Comfort: 00:27:32

two to three viable electric bus manufacturers going forward, which is

Paul Comfort: 00:27:36

where everybody wants to go, right?

Paul Comfort: 00:27:37

Either there or hydrogen.

Patrick Scully: 00:27:39

Yeah, and this, you know, the big overarching, I call it, umbrella

Patrick Scully: 00:27:44

is this path to zero emission, right?

Patrick Scully: 00:27:46

Yeah.

Patrick Scully: 00:27:47

Uh, we've had to make the change, whether it's on the agency side of how to run,

Patrick Scully: 00:27:51

um, zero emission equipment, or on the supply side, uh, to, you know, get the,

Patrick Scully: 00:27:58

call it the production machine, revved up to produce, uh, electric vehicles.

Patrick Scully: 00:28:03

certainly, Paul, it's, it's, it's a paradox, as I mentioned earlier,

Patrick Scully: 00:28:07

that you've got record funding, and yet the supply side is shrinking.

Patrick Scully: 00:28:11

Where will it go long term?

Patrick Scully: 00:28:13

Market forces will, will allow it to stabilize, whether it's

Patrick Scully: 00:28:17

new entrants that come in.

Patrick Scully: 00:28:18

I think the existing manufacturers have stabilized things that are

Patrick Scully: 00:28:23

on the path to, stable production.

Patrick Scully: 00:28:26

But it's still going to take a number of months, if not another year or so, to

Patrick Scully: 00:28:31

get back to that level where we were pre COVID, you know, it's, it's tough, right?

Patrick Scully: 00:28:35

And I, I do see that, uh, you know, the industry is taking steps.

Patrick Scully: 00:28:40

I know Dorval Carter has a, uh, a task force underway that are

Patrick Scully: 00:28:44

identifying solutions, you know,

Paul Comfort: 00:28:46

APTA, APTA sponsored that and the head of New York and

Paul Comfort: 00:28:49

the head of Chicago, our two biggest systems are helping to lead it.

Patrick Scully: 00:28:52

Yeah.

Patrick Scully: 00:28:52

And I think you'll see elements come out of, That task force, the industry

Patrick Scully: 00:28:57

will correct as I, as I said, it has to, it's, you know, things have

Patrick Scully: 00:29:01

happened before in the past, whether it's 10, 20, 30 years ago, we've had

Patrick Scully: 00:29:05

this up and down on the supply side.

Patrick Scully: 00:29:06

I've, I've seen it personally, but together with the solutions

Patrick Scully: 00:29:10

that we've identified here.

Patrick Scully: 00:29:12

and bridging that gap until we get back to stabilization, the industry

Patrick Scully: 00:29:16

is, is, uh, resolute and, and solid enough to be able to withstand this,

Patrick Scully: 00:29:22

uh, kind of correction that we're in.

Patrick Scully: 00:29:24

Gotcha.

Paul Comfort: 00:29:25

Patrick, are there any other solutions you can talk to us about?

Patrick Scully: 00:29:27

Yeah, I think there's one last item to bring up and that is,

Patrick Scully: 00:29:32

uh, the converting of existing fleet to zero emission, um, propulsion.

Patrick Scully: 00:29:38

again, available to market, take existing equipment, take out the

Patrick Scully: 00:29:42

internal combustion engine components and powertrain and add in, electric

Patrick Scully: 00:29:47

powertrain components and batteries.

Patrick Scully: 00:29:49

And again, at half the cost of a new piece of equipment and done in

Patrick Scully: 00:29:54

a time frame of six to nine months, which is much, much quicker than,

Patrick Scully: 00:29:58

you know, waiting for a new bus.

Patrick Scully: 00:29:59

So, you know, a number of options identified, Paul.

Patrick Scully: 00:30:02

Bridging the gap is the key.

Patrick Scully: 00:30:04

The industry is resolute.

Patrick Scully: 00:30:05

We'll see our way clear.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:07

Wow.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:07

Great information, Patrick.

Paul Comfort: 00:30:08

Thank you so much.

Patrick Scully: 00:30:09

Thanks, Paul.

Patrick Scully: 00:30:10

Appreciate the time.

Tris Hussey: 00:30:15

This is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Tris Hussey: 00:30:18

Thank you for listening to this week's show with our special

Tris Hussey: 00:30:20

guests, Ed Redfern, Joel Rubin.

Tris Hussey: 00:30:24

Julia Castillo.

Tris Hussey: 00:30:25

Brooke Ramsey and Patrick Scully.

Tris Hussey: 00:30:27

Now coming up next week on the show, we have Eddie Van Stein

Tris Hussey: 00:30:30

and Wendy Weedon talking about the importance of rural transit.

Tris Hussey: 00:30:34

As Julia and Brooke mentioned, public transit is essential in many rural areas

Tris Hussey: 00:30:39

for people to get to appointments and just connect with everything in life.

Tris Hussey: 00:30:44

Have you subscribed to the Transit Unplugged a newsletter yet?

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Just head over to transit unplugged.com to sign up.

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Tris Hussey: 00:31:02

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Tris Hussey: 00:31:05

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So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.