Episode 8

Can Public-Private Partnerships Complete Transit Projects Faster?

Welcome to the penultimate episode of Transit Unplugged for 2023! This week we wrap our series recorded at the CUTA conference in Edmonton with an interview with Arthur Nicolet, CEO of Transdev Canada (https://www.transdev.ca/en/).

Paul and Arthur not only talk about contracting in Canada, but pairing with the episode featuring Transdev US CEO Laura Hendricks, talk about the role of contracting around the world. Contracting seems to naturally pair with public-private partnerships (P3s) and Arthur talks about the benefits for all sides when agencies and private contractors are free to find the best solution to solve the problem at hand, not the solution people initially thought would be the right one.

Paul and Arthur wrap the conversation with a look at ahead to 2024 and the role of AI in transit--one of our favorite topics here on Transit Unplugged.

Next week in the final episode of 2023, we have Paul Skoutelas and Petra Mollet of APTA looking back at the year and ahead to what's to come.

And we're going to have a special bonus episode coming out December 29th, so stay tuned for that.

If you have a question or comment, you can reach us at info@transitunplugged.com.

00:00 Introduction to this episode by Paul Comfort

01:48 Introduction and Background of Transdev Canada

04:37 Understanding Public-Private Partnerships

09:58 The Role of Contractors in Public Transit

15:50 Future Trends in Public Transit

23:19 The Impact of Artificial Intelligence on Public Transit

26:01 Coming up next week on Transit Unplugged

Transcript
Paul Comfort:

Welcome to Transit Unplugged.

Paul Comfort:

I'm Paul Comfort, and on this episode of Transit Unplugged, we

Paul Comfort:

speak with Arthur Nicolet Chief Executive Officer of Transdev Canada.

Paul Comfort:

This is our third episode that we recorded while at the CUTA

Paul Comfort:

conference in Edmonton, Canada.

Paul Comfort:

This is, a great episode where we talk about contracting in

Paul Comfort:

Canada, which is so prevalent.

Paul Comfort:

Across the nation as it is here in the United States and really across the world.

Paul Comfort:

And Arthur heads up one of the largest companies in Canada that

Paul Comfort:

operates contract services for transit agencies around the country.

Paul Comfort:

We also filmed an episode of Transit Unplugged TV while we were

Paul Comfort:

there in Edmonton, Canada, and it is live airing now on YouTube.

Paul Comfort:

You can go to our YouTube channel, Transit Unplugged TV, and check out the

Paul Comfort:

show and see some of the interview and, uh, see what we're talking about there.

Paul Comfort:

On next week's episode, our year end review, make sure you

Paul Comfort:

tune in then and subscribe today so you never miss an episode.

Paul Comfort:

We interview Paul Skitellis.

Paul Comfort:

We move from Canada here to the U.

Paul Comfort:

S.

Paul Comfort:

Paul Skoutelis is CEO of APTA, the American Public Transportation

Paul Comfort:

Association, and also Petra Mollet who is the, who is head of their

Paul Comfort:

international programs there.

Paul Comfort:

And so Paul talks about what's happening, the trends coming out

Paul Comfort:

of this year into 2024, what the lessons learned were in 2023.

Paul Comfort:

And Petra talks about some of their international travels that APTA took

Paul Comfort:

this last year to places like Australia and also Barcelona and lessons they

Paul Comfort:

learned from transit agencies there.

Paul Comfort:

It's a phenomenal episode.

Paul Comfort:

I think you'll enjoy both of them.

Paul Comfort:

And now let's tune into our interview with Arthur Nicolet we recorded it

Paul Comfort:

live while at the CUTA conference.

Paul Comfort:

in Edmonton, Canada.

Paul Comfort:

Great to be at the Canadian Urban Transit Association's conference in Edmonton,

Paul Comfort:

Canada, with my Canadian friends, and great to have with us today Arthur

Paul Comfort:

Nicolet who is CEO of Transdev Canada.

Paul Comfort:

Thanks for being a guest today.

Arthur Nicolet:

And it's a pleasure to be here.

Paul Comfort:

I guess it's, you know, Transdev is the world's largest

Paul Comfort:

contracting company, that contracts to operate public transportation.

Paul Comfort:

Is that right?

Paul Comfort:

I mean, that's what

Arthur Nicolet:

Correct.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's the biggest private operator worldwide, so

Paul Comfort:

Right.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, and I've interviewed several of the leaders of the company over the years.

Paul Comfort:

You know, in my background, I actually work for a company, Yellow Transportation

Paul Comfort:

in Baltimore that was bought by Connex, which became Viola, which became Transdev.

Paul Comfort:

And so I got a little bit of connection there.

Paul Comfort:

But tell us some about your company and the role you play here in Canada.

Arthur Nicolet:

uh, as you told, as you said, you know, that's the biggest of,

Arthur Nicolet:

you know, private virtual worldwide.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's a multi modal company where it's all modes of transportation.

Arthur Nicolet:

And I came here five years ago in Canada.

Arthur Nicolet:

Just to develop our operation across Canada.

Arthur Nicolet:

Oh, yeah, really, we started really with small operation,

Arthur Nicolet:

transit operation around Montreal.

Arthur Nicolet:

And really the objective it was, you know, to become, you know, the first

Arthur Nicolet:

multimodal operator across Canada.

Arthur Nicolet:

And, you know, for the past five years, it went well, of course, with

Arthur Nicolet:

ups and down, like in any industry and organization because of COVID,

Arthur Nicolet:

because of so many challenges that we have, but so far we develop activities

Arthur Nicolet:

in the rail with P3 projects in Ontario, especially with your Ontario.

Arthur Nicolet:

with Ontario line, which is the automatic metro.

Arthur Nicolet:

Uh, we have developed also our operation in the medical transportation, and

Arthur Nicolet:

we are the leader in Ontario as well.

Arthur Nicolet:

We have now with, uh, you know, our new acquisition in the west part of Canada.

Arthur Nicolet:

We have lots of operation in B.

Arthur Nicolet:

C.

Paul Comfort:

What did you acquire?

Arthur Nicolet:

Uh, First Transit.

Paul Comfort:

Oh, right.

Paul Comfort:

Oh, with first transit.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, sure, sure.

Arthur Nicolet:

So now we have, you know, operation in the West Coast of Canada,

Arthur Nicolet:

and that brings also new talents as well.

Arthur Nicolet:

So yeah, it's a, it was a quite a journey, Yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

You know, I'm literally born and raised at Transdev.

Arthur Nicolet:

So I've done all my career there.

Arthur Nicolet:

Is that right?

Arthur Nicolet:

Oh yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

I started out, you know, by an internship and then I moved, you know.

Arthur Nicolet:

So from a really small operation, I was GM, and then I moved, you

Arthur Nicolet:

know, step by step, all kind of position inside the organization.

Paul Comfort:

Wow, that's cool.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah.

Paul Comfort:

So like, what was the job you had right before you came to Canada?

Arthur Nicolet:

I was in charge of the P3 project, the biggest

Arthur Nicolet:

one in France, in Normandy.

Arthur Nicolet:

Oh, in Normandy.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah, correct.

Arthur Nicolet:

For a city.

Arthur Nicolet:

So we were in charge, and maybe, you know, it comes from contracting.

Arthur Nicolet:

Uh huh.

Arthur Nicolet:

It was the way we delegate, you know, the operation, the clients delegate.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's really, you are in charge of the ridership, you are in charge of the fares,

Arthur Nicolet:

uh, you are in charge of investment.

Arthur Nicolet:

Operation and maintenance.

Arthur Nicolet:

So really it's a full scope of operations.

Paul Comfort:

Okay, so let's talk about that.

Paul Comfort:

Let's unpack P3s for a minute.

Paul Comfort:

public private partnerships are a methodology that government

Paul Comfort:

agencies or PTAs sometimes use to build maintain and operate, right?

Paul Comfort:

So talk to us about how that works because I don't think we've really talked about

Paul Comfort:

that too much on this podcast before, but it's used worldwide as a methodology.

Arthur Nicolet:

I believe it's really a great and smart approach.

Arthur Nicolet:

Of course, we need guidelines in this kind of project, but it's

Arthur Nicolet:

a way, you know, to be creative.

Arthur Nicolet:

we talk a lot, especially nowadays, that we are short in funding, so we need to

Arthur Nicolet:

be creative, but if we want to build new solutions, innovative solutions, we

Arthur Nicolet:

need to bring together, manufacturers, construction companies, operators..

Arthur Nicolet:

And of course, the, the clients, which represents, uh, the passengers and,

Arthur Nicolet:

and the people, the community and all together work, together to find

Arthur Nicolet:

the best solution, the best scenario.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that, that could be something great.

Paul Comfort:

Which could be a P3, right?

Paul Comfort:

That could be a P3.

Paul Comfort:

So let's say a city wants to build a new rail line.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah.

Paul Comfort:

So walk us through how that might work.

Arthur Nicolet:

But, you know, in that way, of course, the CTO will release

Arthur Nicolet:

the RFP, and then, you know, the objective for the private operators

Arthur Nicolet:

and partners, just for, you know, you build, you know, a consortium,

Arthur Nicolet:

so you are several, you know, around.

Arthur Nicolet:

Uh, each of, uh, of us brings, you know, uh, a piece of the solutions.

Paul Comfort:

Yes.

Paul Comfort:

Right.

Paul Comfort:

So sometimes these consortiums might have 20 companies in 'em, right.

Paul Comfort:

That are, that are building, uh, let's say a rail line.

Paul Comfort:

So you might have someone who's doing the groundwork Correct.

Paul Comfort:

And then someone who's doing the rail work.

Paul Comfort:

So one company would kinda lead, but it could be a consortium or a large

Paul Comfort:

group of companies that bid, right?

Arthur Nicolet:

That's correct.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

And the beauty of that, that there is, you know, it.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's an intense discussion between, you know, all the stakeholders.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

Okay.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

You know, we are trying always to find what is the best, the optimum solution

Arthur Nicolet:

for the client, for the passenger.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

For, you know, to be efficient and performance and that's great.

Paul Comfort:

And sometimes when you're in the middle of the process, things happen

Paul Comfort:

that you weren't planning on, right?

Paul Comfort:

So then you have to work closely with the PTA, the Public Transport

Paul Comfort:

Authority, to solve those problems.

Arthur Nicolet:

Of course, you know, it's, it's always a discussion,

Arthur Nicolet:

discussion with the clients, discussion, you know, with the other partners.

Arthur Nicolet:

The thing is, you need to listen a lot to understand what are the

Arthur Nicolet:

constraints of all the stakeholders if you want to find the best solution.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that's great because sometimes, you know, you have RFP with,

Arthur Nicolet:

you know, strict guidelines.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that's not so, uh, allow us, you know, to, to provide the creativity, innovation.

Arthur Nicolet:

But when you have, you know, you know, and you told you that, you know, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

more opportunities, more autonomy to be creative, you can find better solution.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that's great.

Paul Comfort:

When I was, uh, when I was head of the MTA in Baltimore, we

Paul Comfort:

did a, uh, P3 project for something called the Purple Line, which is a

Paul Comfort:

rail line outside of Washington, D.

Paul Comfort:

C., and I remember when people were explaining to me, you know, the reasons

Paul Comfort:

why a P3 would be good here, they'd already made that decision before I got

Paul Comfort:

there, but it was so, it said, the way we design these, and tell me if this has been

Paul Comfort:

your experience, so they use an elevator, for example, so you have an elevator in

Paul Comfort:

a rail station, and in a traditional, proposal, they would tell you the steel

Paul Comfort:

has to be this thick, you have to have this kind of electricity, it would be

Paul Comfort:

very, uh, descriptive and prescriptive.

Paul Comfort:

But in a P3, they would say, build us an elevator, Transdev, and we

Paul Comfort:

want it to be, uh, to transport 1, 000 people every 30 minutes.

Paul Comfort:

The ability to do that.

Paul Comfort:

So they would give you kind of the goal and let you use your own creativity.

Paul Comfort:

Is that how you've experienced P3s in France and other places?

Arthur Nicolet:

That's correct.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

And I will have something, you know, on what you explain.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's the cost of operation and maintenance.

Arthur Nicolet:

Right.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's something which is really interesting, because you

Arthur Nicolet:

can have P3 project just for the design and construction.

Arthur Nicolet:

Okay.

Arthur Nicolet:

But you can have also P3s.

Arthur Nicolet:

Design, construction, operation, and maintenance over the 30 years.

Arthur Nicolet:

And we know, you know, when it comes to investment, that matters a lot.

Arthur Nicolet:

Absolutely.

Arthur Nicolet:

The cost of operation and maintenance.

Arthur Nicolet:

Could be crucial.

Arthur Nicolet:

And so, if you consider these parts, you may change your,

Arthur Nicolet:

the investment or the design.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's right.

Arthur Nicolet:

That has a major impact.

Arthur Nicolet:

At the end, it's more cost effective for, for the community.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah.

Paul Comfort:

And sometimes I think people feel like if a private company is going

Paul Comfort:

to be responsible for the operation for 30 years, they're going to make sure

Paul Comfort:

that the construction is going well.

Arthur Nicolet:

You know, to the highest standards.

Arthur Nicolet:

When it comes to reliability, you know, when it comes, you know, okay, well, we,

Arthur Nicolet:

we will maintain this kind of system.

Arthur Nicolet:

We.

Arthur Nicolet:

We will have an opinion if it's, you know, effective enough, if it's

Arthur Nicolet:

working, the performance, we will look at other operations, locations around

Arthur Nicolet:

the world, and we bring the knowledge and say, yeah, well, that's great,

Arthur Nicolet:

but maybe we can do something better.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, maybe you learned something in Hong Kong or somewhere

Paul Comfort:

that you can bring to Canada, right?

Arthur Nicolet:

And also it's a balance.

Arthur Nicolet:

Sometimes, you know, because, you know, we love technology innovation

Arthur Nicolet:

and we can bring something which could be expensive and, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

not making enough savings when it comes for operation and maintenance.

Arthur Nicolet:

Right.

Arthur Nicolet:

So maybe it's better to have a bit more for operation and maintenance

Arthur Nicolet:

and reduce the investment.

Arthur Nicolet:

So it's always a balance.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that's the beauty of that.

Arthur Nicolet:

P3 projects, when it's, when it includes, you know, operation and maintenance.

Arthur Nicolet:

You can have, you know, more creative approach.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, that's great.

Paul Comfort:

Thanks, R.

Paul Comfort:

That's good.

Paul Comfort:

I know we weren't planning on talking about that, but that was very interesting.

Paul Comfort:

So, let's now, uh, kind of pivot to contracting in general.

Paul Comfort:

So, public transit agencies across Canada, the United States, Europe,

Paul Comfort:

everywhere, sometimes they decide they don't want to operate things themselves.

Paul Comfort:

They feel like there's value in Getting a contractor to come in.

Paul Comfort:

Take us from there.

Arthur Nicolet:

So, of course, across Canada, first, you have different

Arthur Nicolet:

kind of authorities, many authorities.

Arthur Nicolet:

You have, you know, school boards for the school, you know, contract,

Arthur Nicolet:

but you have, you know, agencies.

Arthur Nicolet:

Or, uh, cities, municipalities, you know, for the transit.

Arthur Nicolet:

So all across Canada, you know, um, we have different kind of

Arthur Nicolet:

contract contracting way to, uh, to provide the service.

Arthur Nicolet:

Okay.

Arthur Nicolet:

Uh, they all release RFPs, of course.

Arthur Nicolet:

But the scope of operation could be really different from the east

Arthur Nicolet:

part to the west part of Canada.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's something, you know, uh, uh, different and you know how

Arthur Nicolet:

there is not bad or good, you know, things, it's a different approach.

Arthur Nicolet:

So sometimes, you know, the authorities, the clients, uh, delegates just, you

Arthur Nicolet:

know, the operation and maintenance.

Arthur Nicolet:

Okay.

Arthur Nicolet:

So they keep their assets.

Arthur Nicolet:

buses, you know, the buildings, et cetera, of course, uh, you know, they keep all

Arthur Nicolet:

the risks also on their side, you know, when it comes to fuel or ridership, yes,

Arthur Nicolet:

but it could be different, especially, you know, in Quebec, in Quebec, we

Arthur Nicolet:

invest on the fleets, we invest on the buildings, so we own the building and the

Arthur Nicolet:

fleets, so we bring something different.

Arthur Nicolet:

In Ontario, it could be also different, it depends, the school

Arthur Nicolet:

transportation, we bring everything.

Arthur Nicolet:

So, yeah, that's really different in, you know, in a province than the other.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah.

Paul Comfort:

When I was over in France, uh, and in, um, the United Kingdom, I also noticed that

Paul Comfort:

in some places they take the revenue risk.

Paul Comfort:

The contractors are keeping, uh, the revenue that's raised, and so you want

Paul Comfort:

to make the service as accessible as possible to most passengers, because

Paul Comfort:

that's the money, but that's not always the way here in Canada and America, is it?

Arthur Nicolet:

Unfortunately, it's not yet the case, as I said, you know, that's

Arthur Nicolet:

interesting when you have a larger scope for an operator, because you can bring

Arthur Nicolet:

more value, you know, it's great to have smart people around, and I'm not saying

Arthur Nicolet:

that we are the only smart people, there are plenty of smart people, but if you

Arthur Nicolet:

want to express the creativity, you need to give, you know, a bit more autonomy,

Arthur Nicolet:

and again, when it comes to ridership, Uh, if we can do great things, we can

Arthur Nicolet:

bring ideas, uh, like, uh, network design, even, you know, you ask, you know, the

Arthur Nicolet:

expectation of the clients, of course, and we can bring different things.

Arthur Nicolet:

We can, uh, bring the transport and demand.

Arthur Nicolet:

We can have, you know, a fixed route line, define, you know, the time table,

Arthur Nicolet:

maybe with a different way that we provide and make more savings as well,

Arthur Nicolet:

or be more efficient for the passengers.

Paul Comfort:

I think that's interesting, Arthur, because a lot of times in the

Paul Comfort:

United States, at least, uh, because I used to work in a public transit agency,

Paul Comfort:

but I've also worked a contractor, so I've seen it on both sides.

Paul Comfort:

A lot of times a public transit agency will dictate every little detail and

Paul Comfort:

the contractor is more like a vendor.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah.

Paul Comfort:

But whereas like in Europe, where you came from in France, uh, it

Paul Comfort:

seems like you're more partners.

Paul Comfort:

Can you talk about that?

Paul Comfort:

The difference between working with a contractor more as a partner who can offer

Paul Comfort:

ideas and suggestions on how to improve the service versus just the transit

Paul Comfort:

agency thinking, you know, they know it all and this is what it's going to be.

Arthur Nicolet:

it's, it's likely like a partnership, of course, because you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

the clients and the authorities is always here, you know, in Europe, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

following everything and approve or not.

Arthur Nicolet:

All any, you know, initiative, but the beauty of that, even if, you

Arthur Nicolet:

know, the client has an idea you can, you know, provide and give your

Arthur Nicolet:

ideas you can challenge each other.

Arthur Nicolet:

And from that, maybe, you know, you, we keep, you know, the guidance

Arthur Nicolet:

from, from the client, or maybe we can change, maybe we can adapt.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that's interesting.

Arthur Nicolet:

And we, you know, I believe, you know, in the Canadian market, I'm, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

I'm a strong supporter just to, and I say to all, you know, the clients.

Arthur Nicolet:

You should, you should, you know, open a bit, you know, just

Arthur Nicolet:

say, okay, if you have an idea.

Arthur Nicolet:

Let's talk about it.

Arthur Nicolet:

Just that.

Arthur Nicolet:

There's no commitment, but less, you know, space for that.

Paul Comfort:

Like brainstorming.

Arthur Nicolet:

Like brainstorming.

Arthur Nicolet:

Like an option.

Arthur Nicolet:

Like, you know, what could be an alternative scenario?

Paul Comfort:

Yes.

Paul Comfort:

There's a book I read a long time ago called A Whack on the Side of the Head.

Paul Comfort:

It's by a guy named Roger Van Orck.

Paul Comfort:

And one of the great lessons I learned from that was that a lot of times

Paul Comfort:

when you're looking for a solution to a problem, you stop at the first

Paul Comfort:

solution that potentially fits.

Paul Comfort:

It's almost like you lost your car keys and you stopped

Paul Comfort:

looking once you find them.

Paul Comfort:

But he suggested in this book, whacking the side of the head,

Paul Comfort:

think differently, right?

Paul Comfort:

Look for a second solution, another alternative, because that

Paul Comfort:

may be a more elegant solution to solve more of the issues.

Paul Comfort:

And that's what you're talking about, it seems to me, like an opportunity for the

Paul Comfort:

public transit agency and the contractor to kind of brainstorm about ideas and

Paul Comfort:

share and maybe come up with a better solution than either one on their own

Paul Comfort:

could have, could have come up with.

Arthur Nicolet:

Totally.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's, that's true.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that could be better for the passengers, for the community as well.

Arthur Nicolet:

So, yeah, you know, it's, it's great.

Arthur Nicolet:

We talk about talents, we talk about diversity and it's why,

Arthur Nicolet:

by the way, diversity matters.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's not only a social challenge.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's also, you know, a way to bring new ideas, new views, cultural, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

how we can challenge the statu quo.

Arthur Nicolet:

And I believe we have a lot to do in this area, and there are lots of opportunities.

Arthur Nicolet:

So it's why we need to maybe to change and make, you know, an evolution in the RFPs.

Arthur Nicolet:

Just to open a bit the door and let you know, you know, a way, an opportunity

Arthur Nicolet:

to provide ideas and to be creative.

Paul Comfort:

So let's talk about that.

Paul Comfort:

Some of the new challenges that are coming up, of course, across Canada,

Paul Comfort:

across the United States and the world.

Paul Comfort:

There's a big push to move toward . Public transit's already a very clean

Paul Comfort:

medium, meaning even if you're using a diesel bus, it's cleaner than running

Paul Comfort:

50 or 60 cars on the street, right?

Paul Comfort:

But we're trying to do even better than that and move to

Paul Comfort:

battery electric and hydrogen.

Paul Comfort:

Private contractors sometimes, so let's say a medium sized transit agency,

Paul Comfort:

they may not have all this expertise and experience in setting up the

Paul Comfort:

charging infrastructure and creating the scope of work for the buses, but

Paul Comfort:

a company, a contractor like Transdev or Keolis or National Express that has

Paul Comfort:

experience all over the world or ITPDev, You guys have, I mean, I think your

Paul Comfort:

company operates more electric buses than anybody in the world, don't you?

Paul Comfort:

Like 6, 000 buses, I think Thierry told me.

Paul Comfort:

Thierry Malle, your CEO.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah, of course.

Arthur Nicolet:

Outside China, we are the first, you know, private operator of electric buses.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

And we are proud of that.

Arthur Nicolet:

the value we can bring.

Paul Comfort:

You know how to do this.

Paul Comfort:

You've done it.

Arthur Nicolet:

We have done that in so many places with different,

Arthur Nicolet:

you know, climate conditions.

Arthur Nicolet:

Oh, yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

So we can bring the value of that.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's, you know, the value that we can bring to our clients.

Paul Comfort:

These new technologies, you've done them elsewhere.

Paul Comfort:

You can bring that experience to a small or mid sized transit,

Paul Comfort:

even a large transit agency.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah, and that could be, you know, a key element, you know, when

Arthur Nicolet:

it comes to make a decision, a major investment for, you know, an authority.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

I'd be far to invest in, I don't know.

Arthur Nicolet:

Millions of dollars in one system, and it could be interesting to have a discussion

Arthur Nicolet:

with, you know, an operator like Transdev.

Arthur Nicolet:

And because we can talk about, you know, hold the cost, the, you know, the

Arthur Nicolet:

life cycle cost for the next 30 years.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's matter because sometimes, of course, when you are a

Arthur Nicolet:

manufacturer, you want to sell your innovation, and that's great.

Arthur Nicolet:

Uh, no offense on that, but you know, uh, after that you have to

Arthur Nicolet:

operate and maintain and there are some restrictions when it comes

Arthur Nicolet:

to operating an electric bus.

Arthur Nicolet:

There are some, you know, costs, uh, linked to that and that's, that's great

Arthur Nicolet:

also to have the discretion and maybe, you know, the client can, you know, fine

Arthur Nicolet:

tune, adjust, you know, uh, you know, the requirements for, for, for the business.

Paul Comfort:

And maybe even like on demand transit, right?

Paul Comfort:

A lot of places now coming out of the pandemic are realizing that they need to

Paul Comfort:

adjust their service offerings, right?

Paul Comfort:

So a 40 foot bus may not be the solution for one community.

Paul Comfort:

Maybe the solution there is on demand transit, but they

Paul Comfort:

don't really know how to do it.

Paul Comfort:

But you guys have done this all over the world.

Paul Comfort:

Contractors have experience everywhere.

Paul Comfort:

So it's almost like you can offload the risk onto a private

Paul Comfort:

company who's already done this.

Arthur Nicolet:

it comes from network design.

Arthur Nicolet:

So, of course, you know, the question and the objective is, you know, how you

Arthur Nicolet:

move people in the city or in the area.

Arthur Nicolet:

And the thing is, the way we can organize, we can do it in different ways.

Arthur Nicolet:

With fixed routes, or transport and demand, as usual, or with other solutions.

Arthur Nicolet:

There are new solutions, you know, and that's key to open a bit, provide

Arthur Nicolet:

expertise on the, on the network design.

Arthur Nicolet:

Also, we can bring something there and we can bring, you know, the knowledge

Arthur Nicolet:

from, you know, all those operations and think, well, we can, you, we can

Arthur Nicolet:

approach, we can organize the network.

Arthur Nicolet:

With different modes of transportation, we can use also the taxi, we can use

Arthur Nicolet:

big buses, we can use heavy rail, we can use transport on demand.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's the mix which could be more efficient in the future, really

Arthur Nicolet:

believe on the multi modal approach.

Arthur Nicolet:

It will be more efficient for the passengers and it will be more

Arthur Nicolet:

efficient for the budgets as well.

Arthur Nicolet:

That's good.

Paul Comfort:

Now you are an international company, operate, I don't know, 19

Paul Comfort:

countries or maybe more than that now.

Paul Comfort:

Uh, do you work much with Laura Hendricks in America who heads up Transdev America?

Paul Comfort:

Do you guys like talk to each other?

Arthur Nicolet:

Oh yeah, we have a regular meeting, one to one meeting every month.

Arthur Nicolet:

We have plenty of things and, and you know, Uh, project and challenges

Arthur Nicolet:

together, so we work closely, of course, you know, it's, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

it's our cousin, we are just cousins.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, that's a good way to, cousins, yeah, that's great.

Paul Comfort:

So let's talk about the future a little bit, Arthur.

Paul Comfort:

Uh, you've got this, you know, grand company over the whole world, and you can

Paul Comfort:

kind of see what's happening everywhere, and I'm sure you connect in with your

Paul Comfort:

corporate folks now and then, and they let you know what's happening globally.

Paul Comfort:

Where are we headed?

Paul Comfort:

So we're at the end of 2023.

Paul Comfort:

What's going to happen in 2024?

Paul Comfort:

What are the trends you see coming?

Arthur Nicolet:

I believe it's more or less the same situation

Arthur Nicolet:

in Canada and maybe in the U.

Arthur Nicolet:

S.

Arthur Nicolet:

We are, there is, uh, uh, the ridership is recovering.

Arthur Nicolet:

Coming back a little bit.

Arthur Nicolet:

Beyond that, it's better, but there is a key question about how we can fund.

Arthur Nicolet:

public transportation.

Arthur Nicolet:

Public and funded,

Paul Comfort:

yes.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, they were talking about that today.

Paul Comfort:

Kevin Quinn, who, uh, who, his service is at 90 percent ridership, but they're

Paul Comfort:

concerned about funding still, yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

So we need, we need, again, we need to bring

Arthur Nicolet:

solutions for our clients.

Arthur Nicolet:

Okay.

Arthur Nicolet:

We need to give more performance.

Arthur Nicolet:

And I believe we can do better on that way.

Arthur Nicolet:

We, uh, we are open for the discussion and find ways with our

Arthur Nicolet:

clients how we can solve this, you know, major challenge together.

Arthur Nicolet:

And I believe that we can be, again, we can bring solutions.

Paul Comfort:

So, one of the acronyms that Thierry used to use is PACE.

Paul Comfort:

Personalized, Autonomous.

Paul Comfort:

Was it contracted and electric?

Paul Comfort:

What was it?

Paul Comfort:

I forget what they all stood for, but that was a great acronym,

Paul Comfort:

I thought, pulling it together.

Paul Comfort:

So, uh, what are some of the other big trends you see happening?

Paul Comfort:

Obviously, we're moving toward electric, potentially even hydrogen buses.

Paul Comfort:

We're here in Edmonton where they have, uh, I'm going to go see it later today,

Paul Comfort:

uh, which I, I love the hydrogen option.

Paul Comfort:

What, what else is happening in the world of, you know, zero emissions, et cetera?

Arthur Nicolet:

Of course, electrification is, is really at the forefront, and, uh,

Arthur Nicolet:

we develop a lot of our fleets everywhere, and also In Canada, especially in Quebec,

Arthur Nicolet:

we use, you know, the yellow buses.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

Now, nearly 100 yellow buses electric.

Arthur Nicolet:

Really?

Arthur Nicolet:

And we are really proud of that.

Arthur Nicolet:

And we keep going, you know, you know, roll out, not only school

Arthur Nicolet:

buses, but also transit operation that will be part of our roadmap.

Arthur Nicolet:

you know, of course, we have different kinds of, you know, solution.

Arthur Nicolet:

We are working also on the autonomous vehicle.

Arthur Nicolet:

It would be the future.

Paul Comfort:

Yeah, let's talk about it.

Paul Comfort:

I wrote an autonomous vehicle last week, operated by Google Waymo,

Paul Comfort:

which you guys, I think, operate through in America, Transdev.

Paul Comfort:

It was, I've been in autonomous vehicles before, but there's always

Paul Comfort:

been like a safety concierge in there.

Paul Comfort:

This is the first one I was in when there was nobody in the driver's seat.

Paul Comfort:

And it came, I sat right next to it.

Paul Comfort:

It's kind of freaky, but it's kind of cool.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's really impressive.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yeah.

Arthur Nicolet:

And even if it's not for tomorrow, you know, because of course there are many,

Arthur Nicolet:

uh, you know, things to, to, to improve, but still, I believe that will be,

Arthur Nicolet:

you know, the next, you know, uh, uh, industrial revolution for the mobility.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

That will be a really a game changer, the way that we design, even the city,

Arthur Nicolet:

the way we, uh, move the people around.

Arthur Nicolet:

I believe that would be, you know, a fantastic, you

Arthur Nicolet:

know, uh, opportunity to see.

Arthur Nicolet:

So yes, there's still, you know, steps to achieve, you know, Uh, an industrial

Arthur Nicolet:

bus, you know, something which is working very well, but still it's really

Arthur Nicolet:

promising and that could, you know, it's a way also to, uh, to provide more

Arthur Nicolet:

services, especially, you know, nights and nights, and I'm a strong believer

Arthur Nicolet:

that we can keep also human, you know, presence in this transit network.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's not, you know, uh, You know, it's not a threat on that side, but

Arthur Nicolet:

we can be creative, you know, we can imagine tomorrow the buses, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

especially for the, for the younger, for the schooler, schooler, you can have

Arthur Nicolet:

someone inside the bus, you know, to look at, you know, the children's yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

And it would be better.

Arthur Nicolet:

We can create value on that.

Arthur Nicolet:

And I really believe that we can, you know, yeah, that

Arthur Nicolet:

could be fantastic as well.

Paul Comfort:

Where do you see the role of like artificial intelligence?

Paul Comfort:

Everybody's talking about it now, you know, with chat, GPT, but there's so many

Paul Comfort:

more things that can happen with that.

Paul Comfort:

Do you, do you have any comments on how that can be, how transportation can?

Arthur Nicolet:

Sure, that, that, that will allow definitely, you know, to

Arthur Nicolet:

have a better, you know, understanding how, you know, the network is working.

Arthur Nicolet:

So that's the first , analyze all the data, the ridership, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

the analysis, you know, the, you know, we know that, you know, after

Arthur Nicolet:

the pandemic, you know, people are changing, you know, they are not

Arthur Nicolet:

working, you know, every day, every week.

Arthur Nicolet:

And that could be, you know, uh, a great tool, you know, to anticipate.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

You know, uh, and to adapt also, uh, you know, our transitory network in

Arthur Nicolet:

real time to be a bit more agile.

Arthur Nicolet:

Yes.

Arthur Nicolet:

'cause you know, when we design, you know, timetable, you know, nce.

Arthur Nicolet:

Uh, but we can be a bit more adaptive.

Arthur Nicolet:

Right.

Arthur Nicolet:

And, and with this kind of tool, could be, you do it.

Paul Comfort:

Artificial intelligence could take that data.

Paul Comfort:

So we're in Edmonton, the home of Wayne Gretzky and the Edmonton Oilers, and

Paul Comfort:

he famously said, skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is.

Paul Comfort:

And it sounds like that's what you're saying artificial

Paul Comfort:

intelligence can do for us.

Paul Comfort:

It can kind of tell us where we need to be going and get there.

Arthur Nicolet:

For sure, and not only on the ridership, but also that could

Arthur Nicolet:

help us, you know, to understand the mobility, you know, as a whole, you know,

Arthur Nicolet:

when you would like to, uh, provide a multi modal, you know, network to the

Arthur Nicolet:

city, it's complex, you need to make a lot of analysis, you know, the city, the

Arthur Nicolet:

roads, you know, the customer expectation, uh, the, the, you know, emissions, CO2

Arthur Nicolet:

emission, plenty of factors, and it's really hard for you, just human, you know.

Arthur Nicolet:

To, you know, integrate all these kind of parameters, but, you know, the, the, uh,

Arthur Nicolet:

intelligent, artificial intelligence can provide that, that can do that better.

Arthur Nicolet:

Of course, you need, you know, a human look at that.

Arthur Nicolet:

But still, it's working, it's improving, and I believe it's promising as well.

Paul Comfort:

That's great.

Paul Comfort:

Well, as we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to say to

Paul Comfort:

kind of sum up things, or anything you want to say at the end here?

Arthur Nicolet:

pleased, you know, to be here.

Arthur Nicolet:

I, I, I really just, you know, I would like to insist on these points.

Arthur Nicolet:

I, I, I believe, you know, for the upcoming, Uh, years.

Arthur Nicolet:

We are in a, you know, challenging period when it comes to funding,

Arthur Nicolet:

you know, public transportation.

Arthur Nicolet:

And definitely we need to be creative.

Arthur Nicolet:

We need to be creative.

Arthur Nicolet:

And we, and if you know, you know, our, the authority could open, beat the door.

Arthur Nicolet:

Let's a space even just, you know, just an idea.

Arthur Nicolet:

It's not a commitment, but at least you know, let a space to be creative,

Arthur Nicolet:

to challenge, to bring new things, an approach to solve this major challenge.

Arthur Nicolet:

Very good.

Arthur Nicolet:

We're facing.

Paul Comfort:

Arthur Nicolet CEO of Transdev Canada.

Paul Comfort:

Thanks for being our guest today and best wishes as you continue to provide creative

Paul Comfort:

ideas to promote mobility across Canada.

Arthur Nicolet:

Thank you so much, Paul.

Arthur Nicolet:

Looking forward.

Tris Hussey:

Hi, this is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Tris Hussey:

And thank you for listening to the penultimate episode of 2023

Tris Hussey:

with our special guest Arthur Nicolet CEO of Transdev Canada.

Tris Hussey:

Now coming up next week is our last regular episode of 2023.

Tris Hussey:

And we have none other than Paul Skoutelas CEO of APTA and Petra Mollet, VP of

Tris Hussey:

Strategy and International programs at APTA, talking with Paul about

Tris Hussey:

what's happened this year in transit.

Tris Hussey:

And what do we have to look forward to in 2024?

Tris Hussey:

It is a great interview and you are sure to enjoy it.

Tris Hussey:

Hey.

Tris Hussey:

Did you notice we have a brand new newsletter?

Tris Hussey:

We've given it a whole new look and a lot of great new content and

Tris Hussey:

over the transit unplugged.com and sign up for our new newsletter and

Tris Hussey:

see what all the fuss is about.

Tris Hussey:

If you have a question or a comment or even one to be a guest on the show.

Tris Hussey:

Feel free to email us@infoattransitunplugged.com.

Tris Hussey:

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo.

Tris Hussey:

At Modaxo, we're passionate about moving the world's people

Tris Hussey:

and at Transit Unplugged.

Tris Hussey:

We're passionate about telling those stories.

Tris Hussey:

So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.

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Transit Unplugged
Leading podcast on public transit hosted by Paul Comfort, SVP Modaxo.

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